Chucky’s 1966 Mustang rebuild
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: General Correct Craft Discussion
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: Anything Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=48140
Printed Date: April-19-2024 at 5:54pm
Topic: Chucky’s 1966 Mustang rebuild
Posted By: Chucky
Subject: Chucky’s 1966 Mustang rebuild
Date Posted: October-12-2019 at 11:49pm
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https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/1966-correct-craft.1166128/" rel="nofollow - https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/1966-correct-craft.1166128/ You can see the boat here^^^^^
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Replies:
Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: October-12-2019 at 11:53pm
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Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: October-13-2019 at 12:04am
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Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: October-13-2019 at 12:09am
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Posted By: beretta5spd
Date Posted: October-13-2019 at 12:10am
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Very cool. It looks like the perfect starting point for a project. These are the kind of boats I dream of owning and taking out on my own on a Saturday morning with a thermos of coffee. Wishing you the best of luck! ------------- 1996,1997 Sport Nautique 1986,1992 Ski Nautique - Sold 1995 Sport Nautique - Current |
Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: October-13-2019 at 12:17am
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Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: October-13-2019 at 12:26am
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Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: October-13-2019 at 12:36am
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Posted By: Fabcon
Date Posted: October-13-2019 at 2:02am
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Good looking start. ------------- 1976 Ski Nautique 351 Escort 1984 Barefoot Nautique (Parting Out) |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: October-13-2019 at 1:50pm
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I think you found a gem of a project there, I like the boat and I like your work area and helpers even more! So much fun to have the kids involved in projects like that. Good luck with the assembly! ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: October-13-2019 at 5:37pm
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Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: October-13-2019 at 5:42pm
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Posted By: jimsport93
Date Posted: October-13-2019 at 5:44pm
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Nice find. Great, fun boat. Looking forward to seeing the faces of those three boys when they get to go for the first ride ! ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2798 - 93 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: October-13-2019 at 5:55pm
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Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: October-13-2019 at 6:00pm
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Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: October-13-2019 at 6:16pm
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-13-2019 at 6:50pm
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Chuck, Looks like a great project. Keep the updates coming.
The position of the axle isn't important. Check your trailer tongue weight. 10% + of the trailer gross is good. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Chucky wrote:Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: October-13-2019 at 8:10pm
I bet the kids think that the chrome scoop on the engine box is just the coolest thing ever  It must be because of that tall why-and manifold as a guess |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-13-2019 at 8:53pm
It's taking me back to the "ram air" era ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: October-13-2019 at 9:23pm
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-13-2019 at 9:28pm
Hopefully the PO did NOT install an air cleaner. If so, get a spark arrestor on it before you run the boat. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: October-13-2019 at 9:33pm
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Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: October-13-2019 at 9:35pm
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Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: October-13-2019 at 9:37pm
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Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: October-13-2019 at 9:44pm
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Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: October-14-2019 at 10:53pm
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Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: October-14-2019 at 10:55pm
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Posted By: 67 ski nat
Date Posted: October-14-2019 at 11:04pm
| Thanks for sharing. Very nice job. Beauty |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: October-15-2019 at 1:53am
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The lag/stud seems like a good idea, not sure why they aren't used more often. Maybe a clearance problem for the end of the stud once the mounts are tightened down? Not sure. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: October-15-2019 at 8:37am
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-15-2019 at 9:09am
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Chuck, 3/8 would be a good choice. I also like the idea of https://www.mcmaster.com/threaded-inserts" rel="nofollow - threaded inserts which are available in SS. Sounds like you're planning on pulling the engine frequently. Unless I missed it, what's the condition of the stringers? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: zwoobah
Date Posted: October-15-2019 at 11:49am
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Looks like a wonderful project. Nice place to start - clean assembly of a big pile of good parts. Is the windshield on the boat the original? It's different than the windshield on my '68. ------------- 1968 Mustang 16 - 351W powered |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-15-2019 at 11:59am
No. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: October-15-2019 at 12:08pm
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Your engine mounts are only lagged in vertically,those horizontal holes are not used. Sometimes the mounts are not even flush to the stringers ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: October-15-2019 at 9:18pm
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Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: October-15-2019 at 9:36pm
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One just unscrews the top nut on the engine mount and lift ithe engine out. You never touch the lags again ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: October-15-2019 at 11:24pm
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Posted By: Fabcon
Date Posted: October-18-2019 at 7:31pm
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Chuck where are you in Minnesota. I am in Buffalo ------------- 1976 Ski Nautique 351 Escort 1984 Barefoot Nautique (Parting Out) |
Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: October-18-2019 at 8:14pm
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Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: November-09-2019 at 9:26pm
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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: November-09-2019 at 10:48pm
Did you pull the impeller off and check the seal and bearings in case your "knuckleheads" screwed up that part of the assembly process too ? |
Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: November-10-2019 at 12:59am
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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: November-10-2019 at 9:34am
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I think you're gonna find that your "non directional" one piece rear main seals are really directional . The one piece rear main seals have the oil control wick lines in the seal and the FelPro seals in your Summit shopping cart in the previous post are for normal automotive rotation 302's. Use them in a reverse rotation 302 and you'll need that case of oil you mentioned stashed on board I haven't seen any mention in any of your posts about what rotation this 302 is or that it's a newer block that takes a one piece rear main seal as compared to the older blocks that use a 2 piece non directional seal with the oil control wick lines in the crankshaft.. You can get a non directional front seal for the timing cover though So, which way does your new engine rotate and what type of rear main seal does it use? |
Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: November-11-2019 at 10:01pm
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Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: November-11-2019 at 10:13pm
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Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: November-12-2019 at 7:25am
Pulley's can be redrilled and flywheel gears are available thru Oreilly and others, cheap ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: November-12-2019 at 10:18am
Not the clearest picture But I hope the seal works for you. I was buying some pieces parts this morning so I added one to my order to see it for myself
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Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: November-13-2019 at 10:58am
| Great looking boat! I just finished a 302 this spring for my Ski Tique, that little Mustang will be a lot of fun. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: November-14-2019 at 9:42pm
Chucky.................it's Ma Got my seal today and took a look at it. I didn't see any of the normal wick lines but if you look close there is a very fine threading for lack of a better word on the sealing lip. Kinda like the threads on a nut Whether they're parallel or threaded I can't tell Now whether that makes it directional......beats the hell outta me I won't mention his name but his initials are MrMcD, has for years gone on about how it's the best seal ever and is directional and can't be used on a RR engine. He always references FelPro, but them and National and Timken are all kinda inbred anyways so I doubt the FelPro version is any different. I ordered one of the FelPro PTFE seals to compare to the Timken branded seal that has National stamped in it. Maybe he'll see this or if he doesn't, I'll start a new thread to get this figured out. I think he'll see this though In the mean time I'd sure give it a shot due to a lack of anything better I know mine should work cause it's going into a normal rotation engine, you may be the RR guinea pig Here's a picture of the threading that's not the best but you can see it better in real life with a flashlight and a magnifying glass. 
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Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: November-15-2019 at 12:01am
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Chucky, Ken is correct. The Federal-Mogul Teflon Seal is made in the National Plant, FM owns both National and Fel-Pro, they supply seals on some parts to Timken. The 5277 is directional and for Standard Rotation only. As Ken mentioned the lines on the sealing surface are threads, with Standard rotation cranks they pump your oil back into the oil pan. WITH REVERSE ROTATION THEY PUMP THE OIL OUT to your flywheel and your bilge. Great seal but use only in Standard Rotation Engines they do not make them for a Reverse Rotation Engine. I do not work there any longer so my opionion is no longer tainted!  FYI: these seals all come with a plastic installation tool mounted in the seal. The big end of this tool is slipped over the crankshaft seal surface and you use the tool to spread the seal as you press it on to the shaft. Teflon is installed CLEAN and DRY, no lube of any kind on the seal surface. A light oil can be use to lubricate the outer rubber housing seal but the Teflon face must be clean and dry. Once fully installed take a vice grip, clamp it on the protruding plastic tool and pull it out. You are done. The Teflon will mate to the crankshaft surface and Teflon with impregnate into the steel crank surface so you end up with teflon rubbing against teflon and you could run this seal for 1,000,000 miles without a leak. They are incredible technology but have very specific installation rules you have to follow. Last I checked the box they come in only says follow OEM installation instructions. Those rules do not work for Teflon which was not OEM in these engines. I had a one page flyer describing proper installation I used to provide to the machine shops so they could train employees. The only thing that causes these to leak is if you nick them on install not using the plastic install tool or if the cranshaft has a scratch or burr that allows for a leak path. The old seal groove is not a problem, the teflon will seal right over the old seal groove. The contact patch on the crank is about 1/8" wide. Teflon will also never wear another groove in the crank like the OEM seal did which is the reason the OEM design will fail at high mileage. eventually the OEM style Seal groove wears deep and the seal leaks. If you have one of these seals keep the plastic install tool in the seal. If you leave it out the teflon will not hold its shape, it will lay out flat. You can always put the plastic tool back in place and the teflon will reshape again and be useable. Hope this helps. Mark ------------- |
Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: November-15-2019 at 12:11am
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Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: November-15-2019 at 12:22am
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IF you wish to be the guinea pig on this install the seal reversed, It will work for a while. The dirt excluder lip would not be inside so you won't keep dirt out of the sealing surface and that will make the seal fail plus dirt inside an engine is always bad. The threads really do work to pump oil in one direction only. Mark ------------- |
Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: November-15-2019 at 1:23am
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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: November-15-2019 at 8:21am
We're seeing the same thing Chucky, they look parallel but I don't know if there's a real fine "thread " to the lines like I mentioned earlier. Also like I said, I don't know the answer but at least you know it's not smooth. i do know that I'd never put it in backwards like MrMcD said, since if it is threaded, the threads will still be going the same direction. Just like a nut on a bolt, you can put the nut on either way and the nut threads on since the thread direction is still the same. I also know that if you zoom in on the National 3909 with the "counterclockwise spiral lip design" in the link below, you can see the wick lines, helix lines, spiral lines or whatever terminology somebody wants to use and that's what people are accustomed to seeing on a one piece directional seal. And they look nothing like the teflon seal. This does nothing but make for confusion.with no mention of directionality for the 5277 teflon seal https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=254367&jsn=3" rel="nofollow - link I also think I'd call the Federal Mogul tech line and see what they have for an answer 1 800 325 8886 7:30 to 4:30 Central time. |
Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: November-15-2019 at 8:38am
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Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: November-15-2019 at 8:41am
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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: November-15-2019 at 8:48am
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Have fun, stay dry and whatever happens, post the results .............for the next guy
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Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: November-15-2019 at 5:07pm
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The seal does not fill in the existing groove in your crankshaft. The OEM seal was a point contact seal so it seals on what is the sharp egdge of a V shaped seal. The Sharp edge is what cuts the groove in your existing crank at high miles. The 5277 you have has about a 1/8" contact surface and it seals over the top of your existing groove. Does not fill in. I have seen these seals at high mileage after use. They still show the grooves in the face. Good Luck, hope it works but the engineering staff was pretty clear when we introduced this product that it is not for use in reverse rotation. ------------- |
Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: November-15-2019 at 8:35pm
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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: November-16-2019 at 11:31am
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Chucky I woke up this morning with an absolutely brilliant idea, well maybe, only if it works. Figuring somebody somewhere must sell a 302 RR remanufactured long block, I started looking and found First Mate Marine. They're sold thru Summit and probably sell direct also. They have a 302 RR long block with a one piece rear main seal . Same crank number as yours. Part number is FO302RB for the long block I bet a phone call to them would either get you a seal or a seal brand and number that they use in this engine. Their phone number is in the link to their website below http://www.firstmatemarine.net/" rel="nofollow - link Good luck |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: November-16-2019 at 4:56pm
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These are full round seals on this application. I have not seen any full round seals that use a Helix on the Crankshaft which will help avoid leaks on a reverse rotation engine. The Factory type rear main seal should do a good job sealing this application on a reverse rotation engine. They are point contact seals and most of the sealing is at the point, A spring is used to keep pressure on that point. In a boat that type seal should last a very long time. If it was standard rotation the Teflon is a no brainer decision. Fel Pro BS40620 National # 3909 SKF or Victor Rientz also manufactures these parts. The factory seal will have wick lines that are intended to help oil flow away from the seal surface but these are secondary help. The V shape seal with the spring putting pressure on it is the primary sealing surface. It can't hurt to see what the Marine builder is using, they have to warranty work so I am sure they are careful choosing the part used. ------------- |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: November-16-2019 at 8:16pm
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Let's see, yesterday you told him to put in a teflon seal backwards, now you're telling him to use a Normal rotation seal in his reverse rotation engine and things will be OK. Here's a quote from you from a year ago that agrees with what the rest of the world has been saying and experiencing.. Something just doesn't seem to be quite right with one statement or the other I have my hip waders on because that stinky brown stuff is getting kinda deep around here For years and years the Fords have had wick lines either in the crank or the seal specifically for oil control and now you're telling him it's OK , a normal rotation one piece seal will work in his reverse rotation engine. I guess all these companies have been wasting their time making seals for reverse rotation applications and in some cases, charging some outrageous prices too. And yes, there is some genuine "snarkasm" here
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Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: November-17-2019 at 1:45am
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Hey Kimo Sabe with the sharp tongue. I mean Keno. Two cranks available, one is 2 piece seal, these can have the Helix or not have the helix. The later blocks used the Full Round Seal, those do not have the helix or I have never seen a one piece crank with a helix on the crankshaft. 2 Piece Crankshaft with Helix, the Helix must be slanted in the proper direction to help wick oil back inside the engine. If your 2 piece seal crank does not have a helix it can be used in either direction. On the install the seal backwards comment, my joke, I tried to help sharing that a threaded seal surface will help the seal leak on a reverse rotation engine and the response was they were going to try it anyway. In my opinion that would be a foolish thing to do, same as putting the seal in backwards. Nobody would do that if thinking rationally. Helix on the crankshaft surface is very important and needs to be respected, The lines will move oil in the direction of the helix based on rotation. Again, this is only for a 2 piece seal crankshaft. The OP has a One piece seal crankshaft so it will not have a helix. An OEM one piece seal may have a wick lines on the seal itself but that seal uses a sealing surface that is V shaped and all the pressure is on the point of the V with a spring in the middle of the V applying pressure on the point. That will seal an application on a smooth crankshaft. The same V trying to seal on Helix that is machined into his crank surface would leak badly but like already discussed a One Piece Crankshaft seal surface will not have the Helix lines so he should be good. He would be better off if the One piece seal had wick lines going the right direction for a reverse rotation but I don't think the wick lines on the seal would be a fatal error and he would most likely seal up just fine if they can't find a true reverse rotation seal which I am not sure anyone is making at this point in time. So, Lines on the Crankshaft are not negotiable, they must match your engine rotation. Wick lInes on the Seal itself are not as important because you still have the Point Contact V seal putting 360* pressure on your crankshaft surface to seal the engine but those wick lines certainly help over the life of an engine to reduce the amount of oil that reaches the seal making its job easier. Older one piece seal designs may or may not have the wick lines along with a V shaped point contact seal so they are not mandatory for this type seal to work on a smooth surface. Threaded lines on a teflon seal surface are very important, the threads are the sealing function with no back up, they can move oil out of a reverse rotation engine but keep oil from leaking in a standard rotation engine but Teflon seals are only available as an upgrade in One Piece seal engines. ALL diesel engines use Teflon rear main seals and have for over 20 years now but diesel engine life expectancy is more than double that of gasoline engines so manufacturers spend the money to reduce failures on diesel engines. I think I explained and hope it does not add to confusion. So a Helix on the Crankshaft is much more important than the wick lines on the seal itself. Threaded lines on a seal are one directional You are correct Kimo Sabe, I did not make that differentiation correctly the in the first post. One more thing that might help with this Helix issue. Seals have a range where they can work properly, If the seal fits too tight they will burn up and fail, if they are too loose they leak. There is a range of function with each seal type. They may have enough flex built into them so you could have a crankshaft shop remove the helix on a directional 2 piece seal crank so you could use it in a reverse rotation engine, they could also weld it up and grind it back to standard size to remove the Helix. That is exactly how they fix a journal if you have a bearing failure. It used to be about $100 to weld one journal on top of a crank grind charge. Have a good weekend, ------------- |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: November-17-2019 at 8:41am
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Time to sit down now Mark. You must be really really dizzy from going around and around and around in circles
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Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: November-17-2019 at 1:24pm
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So I spent some time talkin to seal manufacturers back a half dozen years ago when 302 reverse rotation rear mains became unobtainable and the suggested.one of.the softer flat seals.authorities lines they sold.as.a solution. This seems to be similar technology - I never tried it though as someone a tad smarter than me followed up to felpro with the correct question which was -how many do I have to buy to get to get what I want. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: November-17-2019 at 4:23pm
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Ken, in most cases you bring very accurate information helping every member on this forum, I have been amazed many times by the time and effort you put in to helping people we will never meet. The other side of your posts is the immense pleasure you seem to get out of trying to show that your expertise and command of Google searches exceeds that of all others. You may be correct and it is important to relay fact accurately, I understand that, corrections or clarifications at times are needed but there is no need to try and embarrass people who are part of your peer group and who like you are just trying to help some person fix a problem. Probably why the Snarky comment section was created in your honor, encouraging you to dial it down a little or to play nice. ------------- |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: November-17-2019 at 9:21pm
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Well Mark, I'm not sure why you think I'm such a good "Googler", it seems that you and some others here think I can find anything. With a little time and effort anybody can do it. I'm a good example of a relative computer dummy who learned by asking questions and practicing. My Google skills are easily topped by about any 12 year old with a smart phone. Now as far as relaying facts accurately, if you do that and can back up those facts with something other than an opinion or a foggy story from 30 years ago then there's no need to question you or post some search results quoting what you've said previously. I don't mind someone questioning something I've said but I can back up that info without relying on opinion or getting worked up because somebody questions me. When I'm wrong I don't mind saying so since the last I checked, we're all human and we all make mistakes. If you feel embarrassed 'cause I'm pointing out contradictions in what you've said, give it a sanity check before you hit that "Post Reply" button and be ready to explain if questioned. I don't think I've ever told anybody on here that they were wrong with 4 or 5 exclamation points after it. Plenty of times I've said " I don't think you're quite right" with an explanation why and usually a link to the info to explain why If you can't handle that, well that's not my fault I usually use multiple exclamation points to point out that somebodies key is sticky and needs cleaning. If I post something, I'm ready to have a discussion about it with a little humor, shark or whatever mixed in and anybody else should do the same PS................. I see no dial it down requests in the Snarky thread
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Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: November-18-2019 at 3:55pm
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Thinking about the Reverse rotation and Teflon rear seals I was reminded that we sold lots of Detroit Diesel Engine Kits for Standard and Reverse Rotation engines. The Detroit is a two stroke design and can run in either CW or CCW rotation. Before this post I never really thought about the crankshaft seals in those engines but I know they have been teflon for over 20 years. These old 2 stroke Detroits power many off shore boats so there is lots of volume for LH and RH engines. I opened the catalog this morning and for this engine, FP Diesel a Federal Mogul company sells both RH and LH rear main and front crankshaft seals for the Detroit 2 stroke engine in Teflon or PTFE. Unique parts are made for each rotation use, they are not interchangeable. FP Diesel uses National seals, another FM company to manufacture these. I only share this to support that a teflon seal is directional, a clockwise teflon seal like the 5277 will not work in the reverse rotation engine. I would rather know this in advance than change out a rear main seal later due to a leak. ------------- |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: November-18-2019 at 9:58pm
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I woke up this morning and felt like doing a little yard work, but I had to many other things to do, so I put it off till afternoon. That was a little backyard hackery I was planning on I turned on the TV, put on a recording of Roadkill for some inspiration, took a National 3909 seal with the LH helix or wick lines in the seal and set out to see if I could make it non directional. I took the spring off the lip, grabbed some 600 grit sandpaper and daintily sanded off the lines without affecting the V shaped single point sealing surface. Now I had myself a goes both ways 1 piece seal. Will it work in a RR 302? Beats me and I don't have a RR302 to try it in, but I'd sure as hell try it before putting a LH helix 3909 seal into a RR engine I'm sure there are plenty of reasons why it'll be a leaker, but you don't know till you try, so Chucky, if you're out there and you want to try it on your engine running on the stand, send me a PM with your address and it'll be on the way to Minnesota, no charge. You can try it, you can trash it or whatever. I suppose a short run on a test stand won't tell you a whole bunch, unless it's shooting oil out like a firehose. Maybe you made a phone call or 2 and found something and you don't have to worry about it. Maybe Joe in NY or somebody else will get you in touch with that smart guy that had a bunch of RR 302 1 piece seals made a number of years ago. Quite a few people on here know him and could probably help you get in touch with him Maybe you think I've totally lost my marbles....................maybe I have Here's a picture a little while before I was done. 
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Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: November-18-2019 at 11:54pm
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Ken, if you were able to do that job without scratching the point of the seal you created a good reverse rotation option. Once again, above and beyond what most would attempt. Nice work. ------------- |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: November-19-2019 at 12:18am
And Chucky, Ken will guarantee the seal or he will fly out to do a complete rebuild, also no charge.  I'm impressed you were able to clean that up without any gouging of the seal. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: November-19-2019 at 9:32am
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Way to much credit being given here without a test of the seal I'd try it in a heartbeat if nothing else could be found, but I think Joe's "smart friend" who had some made and seeing what First Mate uses would be my first 2 choices. Helped a friend put a teflon seal in a land based 302 last week and he wouldn't let me tear things apart to try this seal this week 'cause he driving it around.. The nerve of that guy |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: November-19-2019 at 9:53am
Keno, Your worried about your seal?  Don't you remember cutting rope seals back in the day??? And the tool to pull them in with without dropping the crank ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: November-20-2019 at 10:33pm
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Chucky I just couldn't stand the suspense, so I e mailed First Mate engines asking about the seal they use and if it could be bought from them. Basically you can buy it, but there's a long block hooked to it, so that makes it kinda expensive They don't sell individual parts to the public and their part doesn't cross reference to anything made by FelPro they said. If you have one of their engines and the seal leaks, they'll send you one under warranty, but that doesn't help you either. It sounds like they had a special order with someone for these seals. |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: November-21-2019 at 11:53am
Yep a man with a real need and medium deep pockets could likely send me a PM and get contact info for a guy who still has a few special order reverse rotation rear seals. But they aren’t mine to sell so I won’t just post the info. As for the more fun types of seals, those not produced specifically for the way one wants to used them I think the more sealing surface the better certainly you don't want wick lines going in the wrong way that's super bad. But a seal without wick lines that flattens out a bit should have a good shot of at least not pumping out oil. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: November-21-2019 at 6:50pm
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Those must be like cargo pants pockets I think the homegrown smoothie is worth a shot, I really expected a bunch of comments saying "that'll never work" but I guess you really don't know till you try it. |
Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: November-21-2019 at 9:14pm
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Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: November-22-2019 at 12:11am
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Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: November-22-2019 at 12:21am
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Posted By: zwoobah
Date Posted: November-22-2019 at 10:22am
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I run a set of these finned aluminum valve covers from ebay. They're surprisingly nice, given the price. You may need longer bolts as they are thicker than your stamped steel covers. https://www.ebay.com/itm/SBF-Ford-289-302-351W-Finned-Aluminum-Valve-Covers-With-Holes-Fits-Mustang/143413259309?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item216418ac2d:g:Rn8AAOxygo9Q8YeQ&enc=AQAEAAACQBPxNw%2BVj6nta7CKEs3N0qWSL01n9WQE9cInkSOyB6Z9bRWe7LrEAy%2FkWgMTC2J9Efaz%2FA3tnlgIm4ULFOyKT%2FtPPcmXaF9LDJW9vETEm0g0lqUG8X1e1gmsljWppRuQsQUMsU5uYXzWiIcaFYYCIyx8vQh2Kf8BmHzuHM70RtuVNO8BPEWShnI3kcfX4YKOCtjc0hrIbIBqaDhV4M6jCjPF0YvZh8Nlj5N3qmHemUzTe%2Fa9ZFiuxgGbuWynr0mS%2BRLB%2FXpylldVBbjI4hjWOm0Fs7ZmPSG0YHlsN%2BRN0XOt9JrljEd%2F94gwfKWfhlelmYm7dSceL4BWNUNJ38dSrmKul784M2x4jHn5eDXxIpCaiibd2Vs3m7PEj%2B11b2udsYhcjKAXJIbyRYdxexe%2BcxJKvgYFc%2BGCqXYMJLfjdGCcz6L%2FsUtTcmyfrWryMFE9Dzc%2FgaWB2wDXPex5727TYHC5DabdY12jBgrqGXT%2BJfmuYSBlwIzR3rBnWZ0TWKJlAdNNAu0HV4z73mGLhKeLAVddLVW03apBooWr2qZTnOVlz%2FlfY%2B%2F7dKh4XujKhjw6DVTU35SXVnmiF1h2ltNyfqEHzbX%2B7Ms26l4ct6hIJz1DXqxU%2FDcBfrV0NZrLehpD9%2FtYmCY5073dI4S10urvvcZVdNDiJdI6hFvZKlwaIVlNVxG4aAO7D2%2BxZJn44aKcEluFy%2Fx8ovsqmfhZCKE2F%2F%2F0Bx8EGVRFhrnmc7vYwJBZjC2CNTBEUK76mmPVQwZ16Q%3D%3D&checksum=1434132593099fd2022ae5ed45ad8dde588dc53b5566&enc=AQAEAAACQBPxNw%2BVj6nta7CKEs3N0qWSL01n9WQE9cInkSOyB6Z9bRWe7LrEAy%2FkWgMTC2J9Efaz%2FA3tnlgIm4ULFOyKT%2FtPPcmXaF9LDJW9vETEm0g0lqUG8X1e1gmsljWppRuQsQUMsU5uYXzWiIcaFYYCIyx8vQh2Kf8BmHzuHM70RtuVNO8BPEWShnI3kcfX4YKOCtjc0hrIbIBqaDhV4M6jCjPF0YvZh8Nlj5N3qmHemUzTe%2Fa9ZFiuxgGbuWynr0mS%2BRLB%2FXpylldVBbjI4hjWOm0Fs7ZmPSG0YHlsN%2BRN0XOt9JrljEd%2F94gwfKWfhlelmYm7dSceL4BWNUNJ38dSrmKul784M2x4jHn5eDXxIpCaiibd2Vs3m7PEj%2B11b2udsYhcjKAXJIbyRYdxexe%2BcxJKvgYFc%2BGCqXYMJLfjdGCcz6L%2FsUtTcmyfrWryMFE9Dzc%2FgaWB2wDXPex5727TYHC5DabdY12jBgrqGXT%2BJfmuYSBlwIzR3rBnWZ0TWKJlAdNNAu0HV4z73mGLhKeLAVddLVW03apBooWr2qZTnOVlz%2FlfY%2B%2F7dKh4XujKhjw6DVTU35SXVnmiF1h2ltNyfqEHzbX%2B7Ms26l4ct6hIJz1DXqxU%2FDcBfrV0NZrLehpD9%2FtYmCY5073dI4S10urvvcZVdNDiJdI6hFvZKlwaIVlNVxG4aAO7D2%2BxZJn44aKcEluFy%2Fx8ovsqmfhZCKE2F%2F%2F0Bx8EGVRFhrnmc7vYwJBZjC2CNTBEUK76mmPVQwZ16Q%3D%3D&checksum=1434132593099fd2022ae5ed45ad8dde588dc53b5566" rel="nofollow - https://www.ebay.com/itm/SBF-Ford-289-302-351W-Finned-Aluminum-Valve-Covers-With-Holes-Fits-Mustang/143413259309?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item216418ac2d:g:Rn8AAOxygo9Q8YeQ&enc=AQAEAAACQBPxNw%2BVj6nta7CKEs3N0qWSL01n9WQE9cInkSOyB6Z9bRWe7LrEAy%2FkWgMTC2J9Efaz%2FA3tnlgIm4ULFOyKT%2FtPPcmXaF9LDJW9vETEm0g0lqUG8X1e1gmsljWppRuQsQUMsU5uYXzWiIcaFYYCIyx8vQh2Kf8BmHzuHM70RtuVNO8BPEWShnI3kcfX4YKOCtjc0hrIbIBqaDhV4M6jCjPF0YvZh8Nlj5N3qmHemUzTe%2Fa9ZFiuxgGbuWynr0mS%2BRLB%2FXpylldVBbjI4hjWOm0Fs7ZmPSG0YHlsN%2BRN0XOt9JrljEd%2F94gwfKWfhlelmYm7dSceL4BWNUNJ38dSrmKul784M2x4jHn5eDXxIpCaiibd2Vs3m7PEj%2B11b2udsYhcjKAXJIbyRYdxexe%2BcxJKvgYFc%2BGCqXYMJLfjdGCcz6L%2FsUtTcmyfrWryMFE9Dzc%2FgaWB2wDXPex5727TYHC5DabdY12jBgrqGXT%2BJfmuYSBlwIzR3rBnWZ0TWKJlAdNNAu0HV4z73mGLhKeLAVddLVW03apBooWr2qZTnOVlz%2FlfY%2B%2F7dKh4XujKhjw6DVTU35SXVnmiF1h2ltNyfqEHzbX%2B7Ms26l4ct6hIJz1DXqxU%2FDcBfrV0NZrLehpD9%2FtYmCY5073dI4S10urvvcZVdNDiJdI6hFvZKlwaIVlNVxG4aAO7D2%2BxZJn44aKcEluFy%2Fx8ovsqmfhZCKE2F%2F%2F0Bx8EGVRFhrnmc7vYwJBZjC2CNTBEUK76mmPVQwZ16Q%3D%3D&checksum=1434132593099fd2022ae5ed45ad8dde588dc53b5566&enc=AQAEAAACQBPxNw%2BVj6nta7CKEs3N0qWSL01n9WQE9cInkSOyB6Z9bRWe7LrEAy%2FkWgMTC2J9Efaz%2FA3tnlgIm4ULFOyKT%2FtPPcmXaF9LDJW9vETEm0g0lqUG8X1e1gmsljWppRuQsQUMsU5uYXzWiIcaFYYCIyx8vQh2Kf8BmHzuHM70RtuVNO8BPEWShnI3kcfX4YKOCtjc0hrIbIBqaDhV4M6jCjPF0YvZh8Nlj5N3qmHemUzTe%2Fa9ZFiuxgGbuWynr0mS%2BRLB%2FXpylldVBbjI4hjWOm0Fs7ZmPSG0YHlsN%2BRN0XOt9JrljEd%2F94gwfKWfhlelmYm7dSceL4BWNUNJ38dSrmKul784M2x4jHn5eDXxIpCaiibd2Vs3m7PEj%2B11b2udsYhcjKAXJIbyRYdxexe%2BcxJKvgYFc%2BGCqXYMJLfjdGCcz6L%2FsUtTcmyfrWryMFE9Dzc%2FgaWB2wDXPex5727TYHC5DabdY12jBgrqGXT%2BJfmuYSBlwIzR3rBnWZ0TWKJlAdNNAu0HV4z73mGLhKeLAVddLVW03apBooWr2qZTnOVlz%2FlfY%2B%2F7dKh4XujKhjw6DVTU35SXVnmiF1h2ltNyfqEHzbX%2B7Ms26l4ct6hIJz1DXqxU%2FDcBfrV0NZrLehpD9%2FtYmCY5073dI4S10urvvcZVdNDiJdI6hFvZKlwaIVlNVxG4aAO7D2%2BxZJn44aKcEluFy%2Fx8ovsqmfhZCKE2F%2F%2F0Bx8EGVRFhrnmc7vYwJBZjC2CNTBEUK76mmPVQwZ16Q%3D%3D&checksum=1434132593099fd2022ae5ed45ad8dde588dc53b5566 ------------- 1968 Mustang 16 - 351W powered |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: November-22-2019 at 6:58pm
I'm certainly not an expert in seal design but I wonder if more sealing surface is better? More surface means less PSI on the actual sealing surface. There's a reason some seals are V'd on the seal area plus many have the springs to maintain/ increase the PSI. Maybe Mark can shed some light on the subject? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: November-22-2019 at 8:09pm
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I think you nailed it Pete. Modern seal technology outside of the teflon we discussed depends on the pressure on that point to make the seal. That is why the seal is sharp and has the spring adding continuous pressure on that point. In the old days Leather seals were used but for the most part those sealed grease. Grease is much easier to seal than oil, pressurized hot oil is hard to seal up so leather grease seals were obsoleted for the most part. The only downside to the V seal is limited life. Eventually after very high miles the seal will dig a groove in the shaft. Eventually that groove will get deep enough and the seal will start leaking. They sell Speedi Sleeves to allow you to have a new shaft surface for a new seal install. For those of us with a few years under our belt think back to what parking spaces and driveways looked like in the 50's and 60's compared to what we see today. Most cars do not leak oil any longer but they sure did back then. ------------- |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: November-22-2019 at 9:17pm
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Inquisitive minds might wonder why the helix lines on the V seal are outboard of the V on the air side of the seal and not on the oil side. Or why a 2 piece seal has the lip riding right in the middle of the helix lines on the crank? This would specifically be for a SBF engine. |
Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: November-22-2019 at 9:51pm
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: November-22-2019 at 10:32pm
So the typical V8 crankcase doesn't need any venting to relieve pressure? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: November-22-2019 at 11:44pm
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"Inquisitive minds might wonder why the helix lines on the V seal are outboard of the V on the air side of the seal and not on the oil side. Or why a 2 piece seal has the lip riding right in the middle of the helix lines on the crank?" Good point to ponder on the wick lines on the Air side of the seal. Never thought about the exact purpose or that location till you pointed it out. I can guess that it somehow is used to stiffen the material against the rotational force to help seal over the lifetime. Before today I assumed it was to help wick oil away but that is silly as there is no oil on the outside. Could make a call to engineering to ask. Many seals have a second lip seal on the air side, that is a dirt excluder lip trying to protect the seal itself. Seen on many wheel seal applications. The second question is more straight forward. The Helix on the crank is very specific in purpose. It is used to pump oil back into the engine away from the sealing surface. The old Rope seals which in the old days, prior to about 1984 were all Asbestos rope. That was banned, and for many years many other products have been tried, most agree none of the new materials work or last as well as the old asbestos rope. Anyhow the Rope seals put pressure on a very wide area hoping to seal the oil inside the engine. Similar to our rope seal on the driveshaft in our boats. With a Helix on the crank the design reduces the amount of oil on the seal by directing oil back into the pan so less is there to leak. The thinking was that a Helix allows the seal to function better but most cranks did not use a Helix so no idea how much it actually helps. We do know if you run a helix in reverse rotation it does make the seal leak. The good thing about the rope seals and the teflon design is the wide contact area does not leave a groove on your crankshaft which helps at rebuild time. Absolute fact, rope seals did not perform as reliably as the newer Point Contact Seals so they were replaced or superceded. Go back in time and look at the Driveways and parking lots. There used to be a lot more oil leaking onto the ground than you find with modern seals. For every guy that says I had a 1968 Chevy and it never leaked a drop, you will find 10 guys that remember the oil mess in the center of every parking spot everywhere you tried to park. At our high school in 1975 it was habbit to never walk through the center of a parking space because you knew you would get oil on your shoes. Today it is becoming rare to find oil spots under cars. A lot of the credit for the change goes back to the EPA, they forced the manufacturers to clean up their act on oil leaks. ------------- |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: November-23-2019 at 7:30am
Maybe, just maybe Pete, the typical OHV V8 is vented, so there's no pressure behind the seal, just like Chucky is saying. I don't see Chucky saying that the typical crankcase doesn't need venting., like you seem to somehow be reading into his statement
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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: November-23-2019 at 8:10am
I think you should make a call to engineering to ask Here are pictures of both seals in question First seal is a National Seal sold by FelPro First picture is a closeup of a LH rotation one piece seal's helix lines outboard of the spring loaded v contact seal and inboard of what some would call the dirt seal or others might call it the outboard seal. I've been told that the helix lines lay flat on the shaft when the seal is installed and the lines direct leakage past the seal inwards to give some lubrication to the lip where it contacts the shaft otherwise dry rubber on a dry shaft would leak before long.  Second one courtesy of David G a while back shows the 2 piece rubber seal riding directly over the helix lines and I was given the same explanation of lubrication for the seal whether it's rubber or rope  So there must be somebody you can call in Federal Mogul's engineering dept to get their explanation It made sense to me years ago after lots of thought and still does but that don't mean it's right either |
Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: November-23-2019 at 10:51am
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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: November-23-2019 at 11:58am
Would that be "what's this switch on the side of my transmission" or "where can I find some mount pieces?" I seem to remember some answers, not nearly as many as this though And don't forget, with a little CCF help, your dogs learned to post photos too
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Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: November-23-2019 at 1:03pm
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: November-23-2019 at 1:09pm
Doing it yourself is a good choice sine it sounds like you are very capable. Are you just doing it for a refresh or do you know if there were problems with it? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Chucky
Date Posted: November-23-2019 at 2:37pm
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: November-23-2019 at 3:18pm
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The Velvet drives are pretty tough and really need to be abused or overheated before a rebuild is needed. My 64 still runs great and in the close to 50 years I've had it has only had one fluid change. That was when I first got it and went to the ATF over the 30 that was in it. The fluid still looks nice and pink and without any burnt smell. Since you mentioned your fluid is still pink, I'd be inclined to give it just a paint job and go for it. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: November-23-2019 at 4:14pm
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I repaired my 78 trans twice, both due to being an old jet boat driver. Twice in my first few years of Nautique ownership 40 years ago I had a boat suddenly turn in front of me at speed. Driving Jet boats you always had brakes, slam it into reverse and gas it. The Jet boat would stop on a dime. Well I learned slowly that Nautique trannys break when this is done. Twice. In both cases it was stop fast or hit a boat, in both cases we did not hit anything but broke my boat. I learned slowly after the first one and did it again about a year later.. We used to ski a lot on the winding Sacramento river, in places where we went to find glass water it was narrow and winding. Once in while you would come around a corner and find 3 or 4 boats coming straight at you and everyone had to scramble for space. The tranny came out easy and was not hard to tear apart and replace the broken parts. I say easy because as a fairly young man with no tranny experience I was able to tear it apart in my garage and replace the broken parts and both times it worked like brand new afterwards. If memory serves correctly I pulled the boat tranny out Saturday and we were back on the water on Sunday. I believe the 78 did still use the Velvet Drive. West Coast Correct Craft was only 4 miles from my home and had all the parts on hand and they always offered advice on install if needed. It was sad when they closed shop. ------------- |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: November-23-2019 at 10:14pm
Chucky I figured I'd add on to this post so all the pictures are in the same spot. Here's a few minutes worth of todays fun It's a picture of a cutaway FelPro seal over a piece of white plastic that's the same diameter as a 302 output flange where the seal sits. The inner V lip, the helix area and the outer dirt seal are all in contact with the shaft when the seal is installed. I figure the V lip has the most pressure against the shaft with the help of the spring, but the helix area sure is touching. Anybody can draw whatever conclusions they want from this picture. One of my conclusions is that I can have fun in some strange ways Another is that it wasn't too smart of me to cut up a brand new seal just to see how it works.......or was it? 
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Posted By: Jonny Quest
Date Posted: November-23-2019 at 10:24pm
KENO: We've come to expect precisely this from you: - cut something up - take something apart - remove and replace from perfectly good engine - spend your own ca$h at the parts store to acquire the "objects" in question - have the parts numbers at your fingertips ...and, last but not least...punctuate your statement with the smiley 1-eye wink emoji JQ ------------- Current 2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: November-23-2019 at 10:30pm
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If I knew you were gonna comment I would have painted the plastic piece RED Here comes the winky just for you
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Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: November-23-2019 at 11:55pm
In the last photo shown above the Seal is crushed down on the white plastic, release some pressure and the actual shape of the seal will come back. Properly installed the V Shape with the spring still clearly shows as a V shape. Picture below shows a similar seal with a dirt excluder on the outside lip but the V shape with a Spring, shown a a circle riding on the V shape is how a seal rides on the crankshaft. ------------- |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: November-24-2019 at 10:04am
You might be surprised how little pressure was being applied to the seal Having another complete uncut seal right there to slip on the plastic piece, I used just enough pressure to approximate the fit of that seal when I took the picture of the cut seal. In the picture there's still a gap that can be seen in the area between where the helix lines end and the outboard seal. (the area that would be filled with grease when installing the seal} I could have squeezed that right down to nothing pretty easily...........but I didn't. Maybe you just have to have the seals in your hand to understand. I guess you'll just have to check with the National Seals engineering dept to get those helix questions in the first 2 pictures answered. I'm reasonably sure they're much more qualified to answer the helix questions than the guy I got the info from Time to let Chucky decide what he's gonna do. The smooth seal will be showing up in his mailbox this week and he can do whatever he wants with it. |