176 Rudder Story - again
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Category: General Correct Craft Discussion
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: Anything Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=48483
Printed Date: April-29-2024 at 5:36am
Topic: 176 Rudder Story - again
Posted By: 75 Tique
Subject: 176 Rudder Story - again
Date Posted: March-31-2020 at 3:37pm
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I mentioned on the splash thread, I might revisit the 176 rudder story in a new thread, so here goes. I had heard, as many had, of the legend of the crappy 176 stainless rudder being there because CC wanted to detune the boat so it wouldnt perform as well as the 196. Since I now had one, I decided to try to unravel the story a bit more. Still seem to be a few gaps in the story, but this is what I gathered. Jody seemed to have the best answers, which he shared on mulitple sites, this one is from BOS.  I asked Jody if the boat was originally produced with an 11A but I never got an answer back. Maybe as the test prototype, maybe into production, who knows. Then as the story unfolded, ends up there were 2 rudders on the 176 once it went into production. The Bronze one:   and the stainless one.  No one seemed to know which of those came first. This post suggests that the bronze one came first, then replaced by the stainless one, not because the bronze one was great, but because it was bad at low speeds, reverse? maybe turning too? I dont know.  I believe Zach told me he has driven one with the bronze rudder and that it was bad, and mine, with the stainless, was much better. In my research, I stumbled on this old post from Craig Warner at NECC.  His post suggests the stainless was to detune the "brass" one. Which brass one? The small one pictured above or an 11A, tho I have never seen anything that suggests a boat left the factory with an 11A. So Craig's story about detuning conflicts with the post above about improving from the small bronze to the stainless. A couple months ago, I called NECC to talk to Craig about it to see what his recollections were. Unfortunately, he was tied up at the time but the guy who answered the phone had been around forever and remembered some of the story. He said nothing was ever swapped to detune the 176. That CC wants all their boat to perform optimally, why would they degrade performance, and that the 176 was not in competition with the 196, they were two different boats, two different markets. He said the swaps they did at NECC were to replace the crappy bronze one with the better (performing) stainless one. So there you have it. Still clear as mud. Here are a couple other comparison photos I dug up.   So I am generally content with the stainless one. Turns as well as I need at the ends of the course and to my very amateur/novice standards tracks well enough through the course, tho admittedly I am neither a certified driver, nor a 41 off/36 mph skier. If I get really bored some winter, I may rip the back end out of the boat and install the 11A, but until then, Im good. ------------- _____________ “So, how was your weekend?” “Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.” |
Replies:
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: March-31-2020 at 6:01pm
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You know Larry if Ken had one he'd get one of each rudder and switch them out and give us full test results. You know what you have to do....... Next step is a GT40 swap  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 75 Tique
Date Posted: March-31-2020 at 6:07pm
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And he'd have it done by tonight. ------------- _____________ “So, how was your weekend?” “Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.” |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: March-31-2020 at 6:32pm
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IIRC, Boziel's boat is running the brass rudder. I drove it on Quinner's lake and it seemed to handle perfectly fine like yours does. The other one I drove did weird stuff getting up to plane and coming off of plane. Like 180 degree steering wheel correction to keep it going straight when transitioning. Long and short is, it's not at all like CC to not use what's already in the parts bin (11A) and port. No reason not to have used the rudder they literally used in every single boat they were producing at that time. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: March-31-2020 at 9:51pm
We'll just test rudders on your boat Larry I've come up with a test plan, I'm gonna bounce it off Pete for a sanity check though Maybe he'll come along and help me out with the testing  I think that to establish a good baseline the initial testing should be done with no rudder installed.............don't worry though, we'll put some kind of plug in the rudder port so it won't sink. Then I figure for the next test I can sit on the platform steering with a paddle while Pete drives Then assuming we're still in one piece, we'll just randomly pick from the 3 rudders to continue the testing. You should come along too Gary to record all of this for posterity
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Gary S wrote:Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: March-31-2020 at 10:10pm
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The governor says I have to remain in place ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-01-2020 at 8:50am
Ken, There's a very tempting scenario here. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-01-2020 at 9:42am
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I'm ready Pete I would of course tie myself rather firmly to that ring on the transom and the challenge would be on. We'd probably violate every warning/danger sticker on the transom simultaneously . By the way, I tie lousy knots, so I'd be betting on you
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Posted By: skutsch
Date Posted: April-01-2020 at 10:28am
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I drive Frankenotters 176 all the time. As Zach said he is running a brass rudder.. I am a certified driver, and while it is no where near a modern boat (yeah driving those boats is a dream, I have been wrecked...), I find it a little more difficult to keep a line through the course then my Sport Nautique, and maybe slightly better than Dad's gen 1. (but it has been a long time since I drove that boat through the course). Chris is replacing the steering cable so that will likely improve its performance. Still a great little boat - way better to drive then my buddy's 80's malibu or the couple of 90's mastercrafts I have driven. ------------- Our http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4669" rel="nofollow - 98 Sport Nautique My Dad's 63 Ski N |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: April-01-2020 at 10:38am
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[QUOTE=KENO] I'm ready Pete I would of course tie myself rather firmly to that ring on the transom and the challenge would be on. /QUOTE] Come on Ken, use proper nautical terminology when referring to items on the boat. You know it is called the TOW RING  ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: April-01-2020 at 11:40am
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Ken- you would need a mask for the exhaust fumes & that would be working against the Covid problem, so maybe look for another way . . . ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: April-01-2020 at 12:06pm
Don't forget the tools  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-01-2020 at 12:09pm
CO comes up in one of the stickers I mentioned I hope that you mean I'd need a forced air supply and not one of the filter type masks
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Posted By: 75 Tique
Date Posted: April-01-2020 at 1:02pm
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Zach said he drove Chris's boat and it was OK. Steve said he drove Chris's boat and said it was bad. Both said they they thought Chris's boat had the brass rudder (assuming they meant the original small one from the factory.) However, this photo of Chris's boat from his 2013 thread indicates his boat has the stainless rudder. Was it ever swapped out? If so to and from what?  ------------- _____________ “So, how was your weekend?” “Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.” |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: April-01-2020 at 1:33pm
| Disclaimer, I have not pulled a slalom skier in a course with a 17'6", Just putzin around the lake they both felt normal. |
Posted By: skutsch
Date Posted: April-01-2020 at 2:54pm
DISCLAIMER - I Don't think I said "bad" unless you are comparing it to a 2019 Ski Nautique, yes then it is horrendous . Compared to other boats of that era, it is fine - normal. The sport being 2 to 4 feet longer and about 1000 lbs heavier maybe tracks a little better - but that could also have been due to the steering cable which now has been replaced. I swear I remember him swapping out the rudder, I don't know when, and I know I have seen another rudder in his garage or at the lake house. The last time I drove it through the course was last year, and the boat was already in the water, so I guess, I don't know what rudder was on it. ------------- Our http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4669" rel="nofollow - 98 Sport Nautique My Dad's 63 Ski N |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: April-01-2020 at 3:18pm
| So the story about the detuned home made rudder is an urban myth? |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: April-01-2020 at 3:20pm
| I don't think its a myth. There was no reason for CC to come up with a completely different rudder than every other boat in their line was using and also going as far to make said rudder require a different shaft size thus preventing an easy swap to an 11A. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-01-2020 at 3:24pm
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Well Larry With all the conflicting information floating around out there, there's only one course of action to take.............................you have to do the swap yourself and quit listening to anybody Once you do it, it's kinda hard to undo it since some people say that the hole in the bottom for the rudder port needs to be a little bigger and others say the hole is the same size. I'd give you my opinion on who to listen to but that would only be another opinion like all those I'm saying you should ignore Just go for it Ought to Do it Yourself There are no subliminal messages in this post
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Posted By: 75 Tique
Date Posted: April-01-2020 at 4:09pm
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On top of the inconsistencies in the story, there are also gaps. I too am inclined to believe Jody, since he was there. But when was the decision made? During testing at the factory before release? I have never heard of a 176 with a factory 11A out in the wild. But if you believe Craig Warner's account, NECC got them and switched the rudder out, but to the small brass one or to the stainless one. If the detune was to the stainless one, when did the small brass one figure into it? According to the one post above, a boat was received with the small brass one and "fixed" with the stainless one. And yes, the hole size is inconsistent. Scott Monahan told me they put the 11A in his dad's 176 and it was a direct change, no hole enlarging needed (tho no report on whether the port was changed or not, I would assume so) So there are still holes in the story. ------------- _____________ “So, how was your weekend?” “Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.” |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: April-01-2020 at 6:16pm
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Ok, here is my 2 cents on the brass vs. stainless rudder. If it were actually a game time decision, It would have been much easier to use the weld shop (or a local weld/machine shop) to whip up a fabricated rudder rather than design and get a casting run of brass made. We had 10-15 NOS brass rudders at N3 while I was there. I assume these came later and were swapped on and also kept in stock as replacement parts. If it was the other way around they would have been stocking the stainless rudders as replacement pieces. Someone probably already made the smaller rudder port as normal stocking inventory so that wasn't a big issue, or instead of machining the hole larger the casting MFG just drilled the hole out smaller (would make sense if the rudder port swap is truly bolt in without hole mods). |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-01-2020 at 8:56pm
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Here's a whole different viewpoint to consider on the 11A vs SS rudder An 11A rudder is a manganese bronze casting around a shaft of weaker material like brass If you hit something hard enough with your 11A rudder they mostly all tend to break in the same spot........right flush with the bottom of the boat like the picture below.. No hull damage for the most part. Looks like there's a built in weak point Just unhook the tiller arm and let the broken shaft fall out the bottom, slap a new one in along with whatever else you destroyed  Now take that welded SS rudder and hit the same thing, is it gonna break in the same fashion or is it gonna tear apart a bunch of fiberglass instead as it's taking the hit. Is there a built in weak point? Or is the hull the weak point in this case? Beats me |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: April-01-2020 at 9:30pm
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Still an interesting subject, even having read some discussion before. Larry, great research as always. I don't know how you can go with a story other than Jody's, like someone said he was there for a lot of design decisions, another case in point was the very interesting thread on development of the Sport hulls. On the CC decision that they didn't want 176's competing favorably with SN's, I can't say it makes sense to me, you sell a boat, you sell a boat, more interest in more models can't be bad. Then again I don't know jack $%@& about marketing so they may have had their reasons. My guess is, if anyone ever had the interest, a better rudder could be figured out by testing with different shapes of steel welded to a shaft. Once optimized it could be replicated out of stainless. I'm sure there is a shape/depth/amount of sail aft that would improve tracking and slow speed turning. Would it be worth the effort? Hard to say. I know my Sport doesn't turn well compared to a SN, though tracking is quite good. Would a different rudder make a difference? Probably. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: Cyclone
Date Posted: April-02-2020 at 3:21pm
I've never heard of this built in weak spot. What about the bronze dudders with a ss shaftwill they break at the hull or do hull damage |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: April-02-2020 at 3:37pm
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I don't know if the "weak spot" is by design or just a result of the materials they chose, but Ken is right, you won't see a rudder broken in half, it will snap at the shaft and the entry point to the hull makes a nice leverage point to snap at. Anything stainless will likely stay together long enough to damage whatever it's attached to. Stainless props are another good example, if you have an outboard or I/O and think you will hit stuff, stay with aluminum and the prop will be a sacrificial piece. If you go with stainless for better performance you will damage the lower end before you tear an ear off the prop. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: davidg
Date Posted: April-02-2020 at 5:10pm
Is the 11A rudder shaft meant to be straight, or does it have a slight bend to it? I picked one up a few years ago as a spare should it ever be needed that had a slight bend to it. No damage to rudder whatseover though. Would the water pressure cause it to bend back like that, or was that factory? I figure it should work on the old Martinique regardless. 
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-02-2020 at 5:20pm
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Dave, I think it's bent. Any indication on the leading edge of the rudder that's it was hit at one time? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: davidg
Date Posted: April-02-2020 at 5:45pm
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Pete....No damage at all. Looks like the day it left the foundry. I just can't figure how it got bent back like that. I wouldn't think water pressure would do that, even over a long time. So, do you think it would be okay to use on a big old lumbering Martinique crusing at 20 mph most of the time? |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-02-2020 at 5:55pm
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Dave, I'd use it as is but, they typically can be straightened. Northside Prop should be able to do it or anyone with a press. I doubt the water bent it but, they do bend pretty easy. Even dragging on a trailer cross member would do it. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: April-02-2020 at 6:02pm
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Have to ask Joe. If it could be bent with water pressure he'd be the guy who'd know ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Donald80SN
Date Posted: April-02-2020 at 6:16pm
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Does the 11-A rudder on a 175 improve the wake when pulling a tube? Asking for a friend.  ------------- 1980 Ski Nautique SOLD Back to Cypress Gardens 2002 Sport Nautique, GT-40, FCT2, Cover Sports, Tower Bimini, Inc., Wet Sounds Audio System, Star Gazer Wake Edition S. 1968 Ski Nautique, Project. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-02-2020 at 6:21pm
I'm not sure what a dudder is but if you see a bronze rudder with a Stainless Steel shaft, the shaft is probably engineered to break in the same spot instead of wiping out the bottom of the boat. Down below is a link to the Marine Hardware catalog, if you go to the rudder section you'll see numerous references to the rudders having an "integral breakaway post design" on their bronze rudders with a Stainless Steel shaft Inboard rudders start on page 34, but the whole catalog is a good read Now whether every rudder built by other outfits is built the same way........who knows Maybe the 11A CC rudder was accidental or maybe it was designed that way but I'd rather break the rudder like that than damage the rudder and rip out the rudder port And as far as that Stainless Steel CC rudder I'd say that fits in the "who knows" category too as to how it was designed/built. http://www.marinehardware.com/downloads/running_gear.pdf" rel="nofollow - link |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: April-02-2020 at 6:45pm
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Google is your friend https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Dudders" rel="nofollow - link ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: AlfaDon
Date Posted: April-02-2020 at 6:49pm
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One time I launched my boat at the lake and while I was parking the truck I asked my Dad to hold onto it. It was nosed into the beach at the time and clear of any sand. By the time I got back wakes had pushed the stern of the boat towards the shore so now the boat was sitting at a 45* angle to the shore line. I could see the boat rocking back and forth with the waves, and the boat high sided on the fins (I assume). My long winded story is wondering if the donor boat of your rudder had washed up stern into the beach and bounced against the sand long enough to bend the shaft. I don't think you'd be able to see any marks in the rudder from the sand.
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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-02-2020 at 6:55pm
Oh good, now I know what a dudder is Thanks Gary |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-02-2020 at 7:03pm
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In the words of Yogi Berra, it's like deja vu all over again. It's still bent Click on the link below http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=42378&title=11a-rudder" rel="nofollow - link
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Posted By: davidg
Date Posted: April-02-2020 at 8:17pm
Oh you bugger! You got me. I was thinking I may have posted on my bent rudder shaft before. With age, comes lack of memory. As I mentioned on the Barefoot Nautique thread the other day, I can't remember what I had for breakfast this morning. With age, comes lack of memory. My rudder may be bent, but, my carb will be working good on the Martinique this summer. As they say, with age comes lack of memory. |
Posted By: AlfaDon
Date Posted: April-05-2020 at 2:09am
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Hi Larry, I measured the O.D. of the rudder port from the Stainless steel rudder, and it's 1.975" Now we need to get somebody to measure the O.D of the port for the 11a. Don |