Busted Block
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=48492
Printed Date: April-27-2024 at 11:45pm
Topic: Busted Block
Posted By: gravyleg pirate
Subject: Busted Block
Date Posted: April-02-2020 at 11:47pm
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Not really a question, more of a "holy crap I can't believe this happened". We ripped out the carpet last year and are going to lay down Sea Dek when the weather turned cold and we had to put her in storage for the winter. Got her out last weekend and after cleaning up a couple of things I thought I'd fire her up and see how she sounds. Maybe even hit the lake for a spin even though we don't have carpet, an engine cover or many seats. Charged the battery, hooked up my garden hose and hit the start button. Heard the engine turn over beautifully with that nice throaty 275hp sound...with something extra. It was water spraying out at a high rate of speed against the wall. Lo and behold, I have a crack. So, what size motor should I put in next? Would be nice to be a part of the corvette crowd!   ------------- GLP "If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
Replies:
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: April-03-2020 at 12:45am
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Not sure what the easy replacements for the 5.0 would be. I'm sure someone will jump in. Sorry to hear, that really sucks. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: DVskier
Date Posted: April-03-2020 at 1:05am
| GT-40 would be awesome. |
Posted By: tryathlete
Date Posted: April-03-2020 at 5:48am
| How bout an ExCal swap? I |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-03-2020 at 8:17am
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Earl, Yes, when that happens it does suck. Sorry to hear about the problem. Was the engine winterized? If so, explain how it was done so others may not experience the same. problem. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: April-03-2020 at 11:14am
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Im thinking a 6.2 with the whipple kit should put in the four and half hundred range. Nice little re power. ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: April-03-2020 at 11:47am
 but $$$------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
baitkiller wrote:Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-03-2020 at 12:34pm
| Would be good to know age and exactly which engine you’ve got to start with... carb vs efi etc. Trying to reuse existing setup to what extent, etc? |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: April-03-2020 at 12:40pm
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From his diary it's the 5.0 275 HP GM. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: April-03-2020 at 12:47pm
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Well crap.. you didnt say there was a budget. ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: April-03-2020 at 12:56pm
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5.7 vortec will give you a noticeable increase in hp and all your stuff will fit. Piece of cake if your carbureted. Not sure what you can or would need to do with injection. There's plenty of guys here that do know though. I went from 5.0 old style carbed to the 5.7 vortec last repower and I must say the boat runs quite nicely. ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: April-03-2020 at 12:56pm
Well since it's not my money, I'd put an Ilmor in it! ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-03-2020 at 12:56pm
And from an old thread here's a picture  Model Year 2000 Throttle body injected I figure the engine tag starts with PLG but he could verify that
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Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: April-03-2020 at 1:00pm
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I bought it remanned from Center State Engine. came with pan, wp and intake. They will build anything to your spec and the price was right. Discount on shipping to a shop with fork truck. I also had trouble getting it timed and tuned right and their CS was very helpful. ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: April-03-2020 at 2:20pm
| GM Vortec is the biggest bang for the buck. Great engine.. |
Posted By: gravyleg pirate
Date Posted: April-03-2020 at 2:27pm
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It is the original 5.0 PCM and I winterized it two years ago. Last summer our lakes were flooded and no one was able to get on the water. That's why the good idea fairy showed up and told us to refurb the interior. This crack could have happened at any point over the last two years, but we store it in our local caves where it doesn't get colder than 60 degrees. I thought I drained it well enough and dumped in enough RV antifreeze but who knows. What restrictions do I have in replacement engines? Anything that will fit and does it have to be a marine engine? ------------- GLP "If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: April-03-2020 at 2:37pm
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The world is your oyster... But to speak thoughtfully, we need to understand your restraints and must haves, budget, platform, injection, zero off, brandy-new, this DIY basic, hobbyist/enthusiest or contracted out... etc... ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: gravyleg pirate
Date Posted: April-03-2020 at 2:48pm
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I'm pretty handy through the power of this forum and Youtube, but would prefer someone install it for me. I don't even have a ballpark of what a replacement engine would cost to begin with or what I am looking for. As this one is only the 275hp I'd like to find something fuel injected with a bit more power to get my inlaws out of the hole a little better. Something under $5k? ------------- GLP "If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-03-2020 at 3:02pm
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I suspect those 4 things won’t go together. Pick any 2, maybe 3 if you’re lucky. Fuel injected More power Paying for someone to install Under $5k |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-03-2020 at 3:44pm
I like that thought process Since you already have fuel injection and the bad parts are the block and maybe head(s) why not get a 305 marine long block like what's in the link below Forget about more power and then you've got 2650 bucks left over to spend on transferring parts to the new long block and getting it installed if my 'rithmetic is right. No calibration issues since all the original fuel injection parts are getting reused. Considering turn around time and effort involved it's hard to beat The more you do yourself, the more you save. Otherwise that 5K ain't gonna get you very far https://www.high-performance-engines.com/product-p/vmm2.htm" rel="nofollow - link Or go the junkyard engine/block route and transfer parts if you're handy enough |
Posted By: 1TAZZ
Date Posted: April-03-2020 at 6:51pm
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Do you have water in your oil , if it is just a cracked water jacket you can repair it in the boat using block stitching , Look up lock-n-stitch I have fixed a few cracked car blocks It works great.. ------------- Lake Wylie NC |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-03-2020 at 7:19pm
Joe, I'm very familiar with the process and personally don't feel stitching is an option. It will never pull the crack tight enough to be water tight. With the closed cooling on a automotive block you typically of add a "stop leak" product. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: gravyleg pirate
Date Posted: April-03-2020 at 8:18pm
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So as I start tracking down options, do I need to worry about what will match up with the transmission as a direct drive? What about the engine mounts? Do I have to find something to fit exactly or is there some leeway? ------------- GLP "If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
Posted By: 1TAZZ
Date Posted: April-03-2020 at 9:06pm
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At this point he has nothing to lose , worth a try but it looks like he is ready for a new motor . The new stitching pins pull the block together . The kit is $250 vs $3000 either way it sucks and good luck. ------------- Lake Wylie NC |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-03-2020 at 10:16pm
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Pete I think 1TAZZ is pretty familiar with the process too since he works at a machine shop It's hard to tell from the pictures if the crack goes all the way up to the head gasket area on the deck of the block. If GLP was to find a local auto machine shop that does this, he could get an in person opinion. I might be worried that I got the block stitched and 2 weeks later the same thing happens in another spot or internally though. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-03-2020 at 10:38pm
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If it was me GLP, I'd be talking to a CC dealer to get all the info you can on the engine. You might say it wasn't the most popular engine PCM ever made Then if for example you want a long block like what I linked earlier from ATK engines, talk to them to tell them what you have and see if their VMM2 long block is compatible. I would guess that it is but could tell you if they have something else. Everything that bolts to your block now like the exhaust, flywheel, harmonic balancer, bellhousing, starter, damper plate and transmission, ignition system and injection system will swap right onto a same era long block like the ATP one. I'd make sure your manifold is compatible with the heads (it should be) and that the mounting holes at the front of the heads for accessories are the same. A good thing would be to take a valve cover off and verify the casting numbers The referenced engine has a roller cam and yours should too, but it would be good to verify. Let the engine place tell you what you need if in doubt, then at least it's their fault if they get it wrong Lots of things to think about so take your time with the research and if you come up with questions, ask here You can look for a local shop that's comfortable working on your boat too. |
Posted By: gravyleg pirate
Date Posted: April-03-2020 at 11:40pm
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Wow! That's a lot of detail I hadn't planned on. Called our local Nautique dealership and had a good chat. Will call around to a couple other places to see if they can do an engine install if I go with the ATK option. Dealership did have some good deals on newer ones though.... for a price! Thanks everyone! ------------- GLP "If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: April-04-2020 at 1:56am
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A 2000 block is a Vortec Design and it is very popular and cheap to rebuild. I see no reason to replace your 305/5.0L with another. A switch to the 350/ 5.7L would be my first choice. As Ken mentioned most parts will work with both blocks. Since yours is a Vortec design you will need to stay with Vortec heads on the new engine. A vortec engine uses a unique intake manifold and it bolts up differently than the older 350 or 305 engines. I do not know if GM used a specific head for the 305 Vortec engines. If the head is the standard Vortec head and compatible with the 305 and 350 you could just buy a replacement short block and use all your parts to get it running again with a 305 or a 350. The 350 Vortec would be a nice upgrade, probably 35 more horsepower and 30-50 pounds more torque. A short block could be had for around $1000, if you want a Long Block would only be 300-500 more. I think these are reasonable estimates you could probably beat with some shoping. Short BLock = Rebuilt block only, with no heads on it Long Block = Rebuilt block with rebuilt heads and valve train. Find out about Core charges in advance, they may claim your broken block has zero core value and charge as much as $250 core charge or they may sell the short block or long block outright with no core needed but you need to know before you order. Some shops include the Tin on a long block some do not, you need to know before you spend any money. Tin would include, Timing Cover, Oil Pan and Valve Covers. You can use your Tin of course off your used and broken engine but it would need to be cleaned before being used on your new engine. The install is where you will bump into some expensive numbers. I bet a shop will want 10-15 hours to pull your engine, swap parts and put it back in and get it running for you. This should include an actual start up and cam break in, unless they use a roller cam which has been optional since about 1986 in the GM blocks. Roller Camshafts do not need a break in. Shop labor varies around the country from $75-$150 per hour. Do it now while all the shops are slow you might get a good price break and get it back quickly. Mark ------------- |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-04-2020 at 8:16am
| The issue with going to a 350 from a 305 is the locked EFI tune... it’s highly probable that it wouldn’t play nicely with the larger displacement. If it was carb, it’d be a no brainer. I’d be collecting info on that TBI system to see how flexible it might be. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-04-2020 at 9:02am
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Well at least Tim knows why I linked a 305 roller block from ATK and not a 350 And a little reading about the ATK VMM2 let's you know the tin comes with it. And you'll find out too that there's no core charge on their marine stuff and I might as well mention no shipping charge either. Here's the link one more time Like I said there are other outfits, this is just an example of a place I'm familiar with. https://www.high-performance-engines.com/product-p/vmm2.htm" rel="nofollow - link |
Posted By: gravyleg pirate
Date Posted: April-04-2020 at 4:14pm
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Good info, thanks MrMcD! So really am i better to stick with a boat shop then as they'll know what can be swapped over? Or can any engine shop do it since these engines are all so similar? Was thinking about my options locally and who has been recommended so far. ------------- GLP "If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: April-05-2020 at 3:43am
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I do know from this forum that the Ford EFI engines do not allow any upgrades without causing tuning issues. The GM Throttle body design, I don't know in Marine Applications but I suspect it may not be so restrictive as the Ford unit. In Automotive applications, GM Trucks with the Throttle body injection I was involved with a few hundred that converted from 350 or 305 to 383 engines. We also has some Mild cam changes and the Throttle body always adjusted just fine. Some chose large camshafts and for those we had to bring in a friend who was a GM trained tuner and he could fix them. For a Stock Camshaft I suspect the throttle body would work fine with an upgrade to a 350 but my thoughts are not any type guarantee. You should poll the forum to see if others have done this upgrade. I suspect you will find many more users of the 305 engine in other Forums, Bayliner, Sea-swirl and many Outdrive boats ran the Mercury Marine 305 as a base engine. I did have a friend switch his 305 in a bayliner to a 383 and that thing was scary fast but he has moved and I lost touch, I don't know what mods he did if any to make it run with the larger engine. Check first before abandoning the idea of using a 350. It may be a simple program change or it may be impossible, please share what you learn. You also have the option of switching back to a carburetor, a good carburetor still works pretty well and allows you to use any engine you choose. Mark ------------- |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-05-2020 at 8:48am
So.........let's think about something here Do the automotive applications have O2 sensors and therefore have the ability to run in closed loop and compensate for changing conditions? Does a model year 2000 PCM Chevy marine engine have an O2 sensor and have that same ability to compensate? How much does he want to spend on new or reprogrammed ECM's because of this ? |
Posted By: 1TAZZ
Date Posted: April-05-2020 at 11:29am
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I have installed 350 vortec engines in Silverado trucks that came with the 305 and as long as you use the stock vortec 350 camshaft we never had any tuning problems . If you are working with a budget going to a carb will most likely add $1000 dollars to you repair if you think about a new carb intake fuel pump wiring changes etc it would add up quick at a dealership charging you $ 90 to 125 labor an hour . You would never get those cost back should you ever sell your boat plus most people would want the EFI should you sell the boat. I would like to hear what the dealer quote is . If your motor has low hours a block swap could be done using all parts from your motor on a different block. If money is no problem a new 350 is your best bet . If your where in NC I would stich - lock your motor and not even remove to motor from the boat. ------------- Lake Wylie NC |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-05-2020 at 11:43am
| Big difference between closed loop automotive and open loop marine EFI systems, especially with the latter having a locked down tune. It’s not a ford vs chevy thing, it’s a proprietary PCM thing. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-05-2020 at 11:46am
Joe, Any marine engine experience? PCM? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 1TAZZ
Date Posted: April-05-2020 at 12:12pm
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This is not about me . I hope you get your boat up and running soon so you and your family can enjoy it this summer ! ------------- Lake Wylie NC |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: April-05-2020 at 12:36pm
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Reading all this, would this be a fair summary? Easiest, lowest cost fix - replace the 305 block with same, use all your parts, hit the water. No additional power. Higher power fix - replace with a carbed 350. You lose efi but gain power without breaking the bank. Utopia fix - replace with crate engine complete. Very expensive, all the power your choose to spend on. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-05-2020 at 12:37pm
Oh come on now Tazz, you've been around long enough to know that Pete's an expert on everything and doubts anybody else.s abilities to do anything PS I have an engine that's been fixed with that method, but the crack went up into the deck area so there was some disassembly and machining required. That boat's been fine for a number of years.
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Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: April-05-2020 at 12:46pm
| PCM ought to be able to tell you if you can swap out a 305 for a 350, and what will be involved with the efi, if anything. 5.7's don't cost much more than a 305 and are a better engine. Maybe you'll get lucky and it'll be an easy swap. |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: April-05-2020 at 12:47pm
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Serious question for Tazz and others. Say you try the stitch, it works for a bit, then starts weeping or even a small steady stream. Would that matter? I'm not saying leave it that way forever, but if the block is leaking warm water at a rate of a gallon an hour, what harm would that do? Just curious. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-05-2020 at 1:27pm
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I’d be inclined to drain the water from the block, grind a groove in the crack and fill it with jb weld. Have seen some lousy external repairs hold surprisingly well. If the leaks are internal, the block is toast. I wouldn’t spend a dime on pulling the engine and trying to stitch a 305 block together. Also good luck trying to get specific 350 vs 305 efi tune info from pcm on a 20 year old engine. Maybe worth asking but don’t expect much of an answer. If it were me, I’d drop a Vortec longblock in there and maybe give the efi system a chance- being super vigilant about looking for signs it’s running lean. If it can’t be easily addressed, I’d carb swap it. Or look into bobtail options, would expect them to be in the $10k range with labor. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-05-2020 at 1:48pm
Joe, No, it not about you but rather advice needed on an engine and everyone's opinion is valued. It's the reason I asked about your experience with marine PCM's due to the discrepancy regarding tunes. Ken seems to think I know everything but if that was the case, I be answering the EFI tune issue. (Ken evidently hasn't noticed that it's very rare that I comment/answer questions regarding modern engines) So, do you have any input regarding the tune? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-05-2020 at 1:56pm
It wouldn't matter to me. That's what JB weld or Marinetex or __________________ fill in the blank with your favorite epoxy is for. As far as TRB's JB weld fix............now we're getting into my territory, a good ol' backyard hack job Count me in Kinda hard to see in the original pictures if it's just a crack or if the water jacket is pushed outwards on both sides and needs to be pounded back to shape first( and maybe break in the process) GLP Post better pictures
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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-05-2020 at 2:00pm
Ken knows you don't know everything Pete |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-05-2020 at 2:25pm
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GLP Click on the link below for a little reading on an epoxy patch here on CCF http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=42069&PN=1&title=blown-ford-351" rel="nofollow - link |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: April-05-2020 at 8:21pm
Just throw a Cummins in it that would pull the in-laws out of the water 
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Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: April-05-2020 at 8:28pm
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This is close to me. https://youngstown.craigslist.org/pts/d/chevrolet-305-v8-engine/7076136042.html" rel="nofollow - https://youngstown.craigslist.org/pts/d/chevrolet-305-v8-engine/7076136042.html And this one https://youngstown.craigslist.org/pts/d/youngstown-84-camaro-engine-and-drive/7093824091.html" rel="nofollow - https://youngstown.craigslist.org/pts/d/youngstown-84-camaro-engine-and-drive/7093824091.html |
Posted By: 1TAZZ
Date Posted: April-05-2020 at 8:43pm
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I have used J-B WELD on some dirt track cars the key is to do the best prep work you can for it to have a good shot to hold . Clean with a good wire brush and some cab cleaner make sure it is clean and dry also make sure you mix it good and give it a day to setup . I would go for it . It could save your summer boating season you really have nothing to lose at this point. Then you will have a winter project. ------------- Lake Wylie NC |
Posted By: gravyleg pirate
Date Posted: April-06-2020 at 12:38pm
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I like the idea of a used engine. How would the transmission work? Do I have to worry about it linking up appropriately since I have the direct drive? Or are they universal? ------------- GLP "If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-06-2020 at 9:31pm
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Just like mentioned earlier about the long block, if it's the same era engine all the parts including the transmission will bolt up. You should get block and head numbers from the engine to compare to if you're thinking about that route. It can be a little complicated making sure you're getting the same/equivalent parts. If it's a car engine it'll probably be at least 20 years old with a lot of miles/wear and tear so you might want to rethink that or be ready to rebuild it/get it rebuilt
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Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: April-06-2020 at 10:07pm
Tim, what is the most likely bobtail for easy fit and match for the boat? Just curious. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: April-06-2020 at 11:24pm
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speaking against repairs, I believe the chances of that split being the only issue with the engine as slim to none. even if your were just plugging the dyke, now the cyllinder walls are the only thing holding it together on that bank. it has a bullet in its head, call it and yeah, explore replacement longblock options. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: April-07-2020 at 5:20am
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I don't remember how good this engine was before the freeze wrecked it. If it was a good running engine a Short Block would save some money. Buy a Head Set for gaskets and install your old heads and other parts. Just another Idea to get you up and running. Rebuilt Short blocks are not a lot of money and lucky for you pretty easy to come by. ------------- |