Acceleration issues. |
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MrMcD ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3778 |
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Just a wild swing at potential issues. When you set the float level was the engine sitting like it does when on the water? I only ask because if your boat is sitting nose down on the trailer your float level will be way off. You need to level the boat like it would sit going down the lake, so slightly nose high. An eyeball check is close enough normally on the level.
For no start and a clank or pop when it died? Not much to guess with. When things don't work for me I go back to the basics. Verify compression in all 8 cylinders. Does not matter if you did this one week ago, something changed and you are trying to find what changed. If you have good compression on all 8 you know your valves are opening and sealing as intended so that tells you the timing chain and cam are spinning as intended and rules out many other potential issues. On your timing, if static timing, engine not running is set to #1 at TDC and your distributor rotor is pointing at #1 on the cap Timing is close enough to start the engine, spin the engine over with the dist cap off just to verify the rotor is spinning as it should. If it starts now I would make sure the Timing light is connected to the #1 cylinder and set the initial timing to 8-10*. Next with the timing light still connected engine running watch your timing marks as you raise the RPM slowly and see at what RPM the timing stops advancing. As you rev and slow the engine speed the timing should advance and retard smoothly and exactly the same every single time in sync with RPM. Full advance is usually somewhere between 2,800 and 4,000 RPM. Keep raising the RPM till the timing stops advancing and is stable. So if you think it quit advancing at 3,500 take it up to 4,000 just to make sure you are correct. If you have a dial back timing light this will also let you know exactly how much timing the engine is getting at what RPM. Normally you will see between 32 and 36* fully advanced. You stated timing was 90* off, sounds like you may have grabbed another wire by mistake. An 8 cylinder engine fires every 90* of rotation so being 90* off might just be wrong wire as a source and that wire would be right next to your #1 wire location so either the wire left or right of #1 on your cap. If it is getting spark and your Spark is at the right time, It is getting Air, (the choke is wide open) and has compression it should start right up. When you find out which part is missing/no longer there, you know what to do next. |
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AZ86SKI ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: July-05-2022 Location: Phoenix, AZ Status: Offline Points: 117 |
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And the mystery continues....
I was able to physically check that when the #1 cylinder is at TDC, the marker is also pointing at TDC on the harmonic balancer. Not sure why the light was showing different. It's not the most expensive light. I also physically inspected the new DUI distributor and the rotor was pointing to #1. The rotor and cap appear free from any cracks/defects and the advance mechanism moved freely. I also checked the breaker at the rear of the engine and it has not been tripped. In discussing with the GF about when it died on the water. When I heard a pop, which sounded like it came from the carb (but I could be wrong about where it came from), she says she also heard a metal clank. When it died, it just died. No sputters etc. I am at a loss at this point. Any other thoughts? |
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AZ86SKI ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: July-05-2022 Location: Phoenix, AZ Status: Offline Points: 117 |
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Hey KENO,
There is no more leaking in primaries. When I adjusted the float back down and after a few more attempts at starting the float level is now back to the middle of the primary window and seems to be holding steady now with no additional leaking in the primaries. After confirming fuel and spark, I moved back to checking the timing again while turning it over although it is not starting. It appears that the timing is now at 90*. There is a Mr. Gasket timing tape on the harmonic balancer, I think the harmonic balancer is what I'm looking at. I did it a few times because I was so confused. I had set the initial timing myself at 12* as posted earlier and I had also confirmed the TDC marking with TDC at #1. So it was all good at one point. The distributor is securely in place with the nut that holds it in place also secure as well. The distributor doesn't have appeared to have moved. Had some weather move through so had to take a break for now. Next I am going to go back and check TDC again at #1 and see what the timing mark says now and go from there. Thoughts?
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KENO ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11247 |
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So what are these really strange timing inconsistencies you're seeing?
What did you do about all the leaking fuel in the primaries even when the float was adjusted? Any leaking fuel in the secondaries?
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AZ86SKI ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: July-05-2022 Location: Phoenix, AZ Status: Offline Points: 117 |
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Quick update.
JQ was able to walk me through visually confirming that there is fuel delivery which there is through the accelerator pump when the throttle is depressed. Also that I have spark to each cylinder through using an in-line spark test light. All checked out. In checking the timing, there appears to be some inconsistencies that I need to confirm. The timing now seems way off (which is really strange) but I need to confirm and I will be working on that and will report back as soon as I can get some of the timing numbers confirmed. Thank you JQ! I guess the good news is the new fuel pump appears to be working even if the boat isn't starting. I'll take small victories where I can get them at this point.
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AZ86SKI ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: July-05-2022 Location: Phoenix, AZ Status: Offline Points: 117 |
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Just when I thought we had things figured out on this boat, it has decided to test me once again. It is a good thing I reported "problem found" earlier and not "problem solved."
So I was able to get the new fuel pump installed. I began to fight it for a few minutes and then thought it best to follow the advice above about rotating the engine which was way easier and great advice. ![]() Then it was time AGAIN to test it on the trailer. The primary bowl showed 1/2 way in the window and I was expecting success at last. I cranked it a number of times and no sign of it firing at all. ![]() I tried opening the throttle (while still in neutral) to give it additional air and no luck. I tried a little starting fluid and no luck. No signs of firing. When I did leave the throttle open or tried the starting fluid I did get some pops (like coughs) but not like starting. Acted very similar when launched last and it finally started (GF look number 1 for reference). Although this time, it doesn't even act like it wants to start. I am at a loss and a little frustrated at this point. I don't want to kill this starter and create more problems than I already have. Just to back up, the last time it was firing was at the lake right before it died. Am I missing something? Any thoughts? |
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63 Skier ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4293 |
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Agree Mark, thought we'd ruled out the pump and line to the tank by checking fuel pressure/volume. I wonder if it's just a case of how that broken spring aligned each time it was turned over, sometimes it was in a position to do some work, sometimes not.
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MrMcD ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3778 |
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I am curious how the bad fuel pump worked well in the bucket fill test but would not function under load on the water. Maybe the fuel demand was higher under load? As I recall he had good pressure and it flowed well when initially tested? Just curious so we respond better to the next poor soul that bumps into a fuel starve question.
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Tomrupp ![]() Groupie ![]() Joined: October-14-2021 Location: MI Status: Offline Points: 81 |
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Nice work AZ86SKI. It’s gonna sound great blasting past 2700 rpm. Turns out she was thirsty.
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Tom
94 Ski Nautique Open Bow 351 with Carb 95 Double Decker Aqua Patio with 50hp Honda (3 carbs). |
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KENO ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11247 |
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If this fixes your issues, a picture of the look of awe and amazement on your GF's face will of course be needed
if she's internet camera shy, just borrow some picture of someone from somewhere on the internet
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MrMcD ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3778 |
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Looks like you found a real problem. Hope it finally gets your boat purring again.
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KENO ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11247 |
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Piece 3 falls out when the spring breaks, and there's another internal spring that keeps the pump somewhat working. If you want to exert maximum effort putting the pump in, then rotate the engine CCW with Jonny's big wrench so #1 is at TDC on the compression stroke, but if you want to make it easier, rotate the engine one full turn after that and #1 will then be at TDC on it's exhaust stroke and the eccentric exerts the least amount of force on the pump arm so installation is easier. Like you said, the arm goes under the eccentric. And............. it's nothing like the Chevy pushrod setup
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Wilhelm Hertzog ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: June-14-2014 Location: Cape Town Status: Offline Points: 350 |
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From my research on replacing a fuel pump (which I did recently) best practice seems to be to put some assembly lube on the pump lever before installing. In the absence of assembly lube some engine oil will probably also do.
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1982 Ski Nautique PCM351W RR II Velvet Drive 10-17-003 1:1 II PerfectPass Stargazer
Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. |
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Jonny Quest ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: August-20-2013 Location: Utah--via Texas Status: Offline Points: 3030 |
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When installing the new fuel pump, a big ratchet and socket on the harmonic balancer will help. Slowly turn the engine clockwise until the fuel pump arm slides in and seats properly. If not, you’ll fight it. Easy peasy.
JQ
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Current
2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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AZ86SKI ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: July-05-2022 Location: Phoenix, AZ Status: Offline Points: 117 |
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PROBLEM FOUND! I call this post "Interesting Fuel Pump Finds".
![]() In anticipation of receiving the new fuel pump I went ahead and removed the old fuel pump. When pulling out the pump what also followed where a number of pieces as you can see below. ![]() The first two pieces next to the fuel pump are parts of the spring which are obviously broken. After close inspection, it appears that these two pieces have been broken for quite sometime and not just recently. I am assuming that the third piece is part of the pump assembly that would have ridden on the spring. Now, the fourth piece (far right) does not appear to have anything to do with the fuel pump and I think I know where it may have come from. When I removed the original distributor way back before beginning this post (before installing DUI distributor) I noticed that one of the teeth on the distributor gear was chipped. This looks like a perfect puzzle piece fit for that old chip. Could be wrong but it sure looks like it. I have just a couple quick questions. Would a fuel pump with a broken spring even pump (because apparently this one did at least a bit)? Also, it appears that when installing the new pump that the pump lever rests under the cam that can be seen through the port for the fuel pump, is that correct? It doesn't ride under a lifter/rod like in a Chevrolet, or am I not seeing the lifter/rod? Do I need to grease the new pump lever at all or will the engine oil take care of that? I know my technical terms may be off but hopefully I'm close enough to make sense. The new fuel pump has arrived so I should be able to get it installed soon and report back. Hopefully after now finding something physically wrong/broken a final solution has been found. Although at this point I will believe it when I see it on the water under load and not requiring a tow. ![]() Thank you again for everyone's help, I really appreciate it. |
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KENO ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11247 |
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Most any car parts place should be able to help you with the fittings, just bring in the old ones for reference.
I've gotten some stuff from the Ebay seller referenced above and been plenty happy (along with 99.7 percent of his customers)
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AZ86SKI ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: July-05-2022 Location: Phoenix, AZ Status: Offline Points: 117 |
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I forgot to ask where I might find new fittings (inlet/outlet) for the new fuel pump that the fuel lines thread into? I'm sure I can use the fitting in the old pump, but I thought I would try and find new if I could. Thanks.
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AZ86SKI ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: July-05-2022 Location: Phoenix, AZ Status: Offline Points: 117 |
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Thank you KENO. The pump you linked has been ordered. It may be from the Far East but its currently in Idaho now which is much closer and free shipping as well. Many reviews on quick shipping too so hopefully I can get that replaced soon.
![]() I was able to get the fuel pressure check done this am as well. Initially there was none while cranking and then it jumped to 6 psi. I tried it again and about the same. So I re-attached the fuel line and cranked it (I didn't crank it last time I raised and returned the float after I got home) a bit and it looked like some fuel in the primary bowl. I adjusted the float bowl up a bit and fuel level is back right in the middle of the window. When I tried this exact same thing at the lake after it died it did not produce the same result as it did today. In my novice opinion, it has to be a failing fuel pump. If we are correct it may also explain the hard start at the dock and loss of power at the top end (the only issue left after the fuel pump). Keeping in mind that I was the one stranded on the water for two hours so my opinion doesn't carry a lot of weight. This seems like really good news to me since I was really hoping to rule out the new carb. Any thoughts while I wait for the new fuel pump? |
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KENO ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11247 |
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If you're buying a fuel pump, I stumbled into one of these recently on a friends boat
link EBAY The ruptured diaphragm connection is on the rear of the pump instead of the front and on your Commander that's a good thing because the front connection can need modification to clear the back of the raw water pump, depending on the pump. It probably looks pretty much just like a copy of your present pump. ![]() It's from "the Far East", he's put maybe 50 hours on it and so far so good
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AZ86SKI ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: July-05-2022 Location: Phoenix, AZ Status: Offline Points: 117 |
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Thank you JQ. I will check the fuel pressure again in the am. Please let there be none! I am really hoping that is the case. I will update tomorrow as to what I find.
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Jonny Quest ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: August-20-2013 Location: Utah--via Texas Status: Offline Points: 3030 |
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No fuel in the sight window provides a significant clue. You can determine if the fuel pump is bad by checking the fuel pressure. You should see between 5.5 to 6.5 pounds of pressure from your pump. If not, then you may have found your problem. Free-flowing from the fuel pump with no resistance may lead you to a false assumption. It is possible that there is a needle/seat problem in the primary fuel bowl. In my first M-600 QF carb, a stray bit of brass shaving got caught in the the needle/seat. QF sent me a new needle/seat and the carby ran perfectly. I strongly suspect that the fuel pump is the issue and not the carby.
JQ
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Current
2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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AZ86SKI ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: July-05-2022 Location: Phoenix, AZ Status: Offline Points: 117 |
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Well...here is the update after installing the new QF carburetor and fuel line. It was a long, interesting and frustrating day on the lake, but I will try to stay on point. So here is the good, the bad and the ugly.
New carb ran great on the trailer. Easy starts and restarts so I was hoping for the same at the lake. Backed the boat down the ramp into the water and it would not start. The look from the GF was not one of confidence. It acted like it was starving for fuel. After about ten minutes of breaks and multiple attempts with multiple throttle pumps each time it finally started and idled great. The Good: Once launched, it shifted into gear with no hesitation or stumble at all which was one of the previous issues. It was extremely smooth and it was great! Throttled up past the no wake zone which was smooth all the way to WOT. The Ahhhh sound on the high end had disappeared. However, when I looked down, the RPMs still remained at 2700 and the speedometer showed about 30. The Ahhhh was gone but the top end speed remained about the same. So we were content with that for the day. Cruised around awhile and the low end issues were gone and found a spot to anchor for a bit. Started back up after awhile and low end issues were ok but not as quite as good as it was before shutting down for a bit. The Bad: After starting back up and idling out we cruised for a bit at maybe half throttle and then I opened it up to WOT, there was a pop which sounded like it came from the carb and it died. GF look number 2. After multiple attempts to restart, it sounded like it wasn't getting any fuel. A passing boat was nice enough to tow us to a cove away from the rocks so we could anchor up and call in for a tow. Which of course took two hours to arrive. GF long two hour look number 3. While waiting I could see that there was no fuel in the primary float window. The Ugly: The long tow back to the dock. I told her it runs great as long as we are being towed. ![]() ![]() After contemplating this from yesterday until now my thoughts are it has to be the fuel pump. The pump is definitely older if not original. It is also about the only thing that hasn't been replaced in the fuel system. So I decided to go out this am and turn the engine over a few times and see if I could get/see fuel in the primary window. There was none. I adjusted the float level on the primary float to raise the float and no change so I returned it to the original position. I disconnect the fuel line from the carb and turned the engine over a few times to see if fuel was being delivered and fuel pumped out into the can at the same rate when the fuel pressure and fuel flow was tested earlier in this post. I am so confused. I am going to order a new fuel pump no matter what based on its age but I am confused. ![]() Additionally, any recommendations on a new fuel pump for this 351W. The one that is on it is a Carter with the internal filter. The new Carter pumps didn't have the best reviews. Is a pump with the internal filter necessary since it also has the fuel/water separator filter as well? Thanks |
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AZ86SKI ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: July-05-2022 Location: Phoenix, AZ Status: Offline Points: 117 |
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I forgot to mention that the only adjustment I made to the QF was increasing the curb idle just a bit. There is a lot of good advice on here about not needing to make a bunch of adjustments to the QF, especially by novices like myself, and I followed that advice.
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AZ86SKI ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: July-05-2022 Location: Phoenix, AZ Status: Offline Points: 117 |
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I apologize for the brief delay in posting an update. I got the new QF and new fuel line installed last night and ran it on the trailer. It sounds better than it ever has (looks great with new QF as well). Something is definitely different in a good way. The idle was a lot smoother. Previously, anything under about 750 RPM it felt like it wanted to stall. That is not the case now, it can now idle much lower. I also ran the RPMs up to 3000 and it was extremely smooth as well, no pops or hesitations. Additionally, when I shut it down for a few and tried a hot start. It started right up and idled great. Previously, I would have had to pump the throttle at least once before any hot start. I still have to take it out on the water and run it under load, but I am extremely confident that we may have found the solution in a new carburetor.
I did want to share a few things in getting it installed that may help others in the future who decide to go the QF route. If you are using the Holley 12 degree wedge under your QF, the 3.50" carburetor studs in the rear worked perfect for me. The mechanic had used bolts (not sure why) in the rear with the 4160 which will not work with the QF as there is not enough clearance to insert a bolt on one side. The spark arrestor just barely hit the float adjustment hardware on the top of the QF so I decided to go the spacer route. JQ has a previous post with a B&B Air Cleaner Sure Seal 1.50" spacer and another one from K&N which got me looking and I found a few others. Sorry, I need to review how to post a link or quote some ones previous post. In any event, I also found a Stef's Fabrication 72255 B&B Performance Air Cleaner Sure Seal 1" spacer that should be here today. I know its only a 1/2" shorter but it looked like the clearance was going to be close. After I ordered it I also found a 1/2" spacer on the Holley/QF site made by Mr. Gasket. So just a few options if clearance may be a concern. I just want to thank everyone again for all the help. I hope to get the boat on the lake in the next week or so and give it run under load and see how it does. I am very optimistic and I will update as soon as I do. Thanks again. |
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Tomrupp ![]() Groupie ![]() Joined: October-14-2021 Location: MI Status: Offline Points: 81 |
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We had similar issues with our 94 SNOB. We had rebuilt the carb, swapped out multiple accelerator pump nozzles, replaced fuel pump, learned that there should not be a fuel filter beyond the water fuel separator, replaced distributor (made sure to not be 1 tooth off). It still ran horribly. What finally worked for us was to adjust timing while in gear at idle to find where the old Ford liked it best. For us, this has finally made the difference. It’s never ran better from idle to 40+mph. It’s an easy try. Half inch socket with extension and a boating partner. Mark your timing first. If it doesn’t work, reset where you are now. I do not disagree with Keno’s timing numbers, but if your timing is off the mark, it could cause performance issues.
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Tom
94 Ski Nautique Open Bow 351 with Carb 95 Double Decker Aqua Patio with 50hp Honda (3 carbs). |
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Jonny Quest ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: August-20-2013 Location: Utah--via Texas Status: Offline Points: 3030 |
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Uncle Buck is in the Houston area, and I was headed to Houston for work, so I offered to stop by and see if I could help out with his D.U.I. installation. Buck had installed the dizzy but for some reason, the advance wasn't working and the timing was more-or-less stuck at 10 degrees BTDC. We used a timing light and were getting NO advance. When I pulled the distributor cap off, I attempted to manipulate the advance mechanism, but it was stuck. I didn't use too much force, but it was clearly not moving. Buck mentioned that he had tightened down the nylon screws on the advance mechanism.
Something on the advance mechanism didn't look quite right, so I removed the nylon screws and did a quick inspection of the dizzy. After poking around a bit, I was able to get the advance mechanism to freely rotate without issues. Then I re-installed the nylon screws...not too tight. Everything worked as it should. Cap back on and the engine fired up and the advance curve was spot on. At the time, my assumption was that the nylon screws had somehow impeded the advance mechanism from rotating. Perhaps my poking around a bit somehow freed-up whatever was binding-up the advance mechanism. As the dizzy worked as advertised, we buttoned-up everything up and I didn't give much more thought to the nylon screws. Go figure... JQ |
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2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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KENO ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11247 |
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There's gotta be some more to the story of what Buck did and you fixed to make his advance work. I decided I'd pull out a parts DUI distributor yesterday and duplicate this overtightening feat to bind up the advance mechanism. I tried everything I could considering my general wimpiness, and all that happened was nothing,............the advance worked fine, but I was strong enough to break a screw ![]() So.............I fire off an e mail to the DUI guys, get an answer this morning and the precaution about overtightening is to keep from breaking the nylon screws and nothing to do with binding up the advance mechanism. They use nylon to prevent arcing. Looking at where the screws go in relation to the advance mechanism, it's just not possible
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AZ86SKI ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: July-05-2022 Location: Phoenix, AZ Status: Offline Points: 117 |
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Thank you KENO and JQ. That makes a lot of sense and I was hoping that was the case. The new QF and the new fuel line are en route. I will update when I get them installed. Thanks again.
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Jonny Quest ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: August-20-2013 Location: Utah--via Texas Status: Offline Points: 3030 |
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Yup. If the timing advance curve is working as it should, then the timing advance mechanism in the DUI was not over-tightened. Uncle Buck referred to this situation when he originally installed the DUI on his engine. The timing advance was inoperable. The timing stayed at 10 degrees BTDC. As soon as I loosened the nylon bolts inside the DUI so that the advance mechanism moved freely, the timing advance mechanism worked as advertised. JQ
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Current
2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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KENO ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11247 |
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Your timing numbers tell you that everything is OK
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