Poor mans perfect pass? cruise control |
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STANG KILLA SS
Groupie Joined: June-15-2008 Status: Offline Points: 81 |
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Posted: July-28-2008 at 1:15pm |
well i gave the g/f her first driving lesson yesterday, and now i know why they call the perfect pass system a marraige saver. it turned into a huge fight.
well i cant afford $1000 for the perfect pass, hell the boat was only $5000 has anyone ever built a crud cruise control system? or even just a rpm hold system. if i go with rpms i need about 2200. the problem with a rev limiter like used in drag racing is i dont think 2200 would be enough to yank us out of the water with out feelign like were dragging. and ive seen motorcycle stunters put a knob on there idle control cable and anjust it that way. of course a true mph based cruise control type system would be more accurate. has anyone ever built one? or have any ideas on how to? its for an 82 SN2001 thanks Cory |
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'82 SN2001
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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Corey, where you been........
I built and installed a system on my boat that after the bugs were worked out is "PERFECT"............. Do a search on "redneck perfect pass" It will tell of some of the issues and solutions to the problems encountered. It is a RPM based system that holds well, with the added feature of speed up or down at 75 rpm bumps............Boat dr |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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STANG KILLA SS
Groupie Joined: June-15-2008 Status: Offline Points: 81 |
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CCS100?
http://www.brandsplace.com/0002-ccs100.html what kills the CC when i fall? does the driver just mash the throttle and it stops accelerating at the desired rpm/speed? whats the sequence the driver does as shes pulling me out of the water? |
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'82 SN2001
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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Corey, give me a ring and I can tell you the in's and out's of this device......Billy
1-318-386-2825 |
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STANG KILLA SS
Groupie Joined: June-15-2008 Status: Offline Points: 81 |
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ok thanks. cause your pretty vaige in your posts lol
just want to make sure this thing is right for me and exactly how it works. |
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'82 SN2001
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azeus17
Gold Member Joined: August-19-2007 Location: Grand Rapids, M Status: Offline Points: 576 |
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Doc-
There was some talk in your "redneck PP" post about adapting your system with a GPS speed control someone else had found. Was there any progress on that, or were you involved in that at all? That is pretty much Zero Off and would be sweet if someone figured it out. You could probably make some good bucks too. |
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Boats:
Current: 02 SANTE Sold: 89 Sport Nautique |
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RainDog
Platinum Member Joined: February-21-2007 Location: Mke/Grn Lake WI Status: Offline Points: 1387 |
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I was checking into the feasibility of using a Nordskog GPS speed sensor to drive an analog speedometer when the good Doc was working on his RNPP.
In theory, it should work fine if the unit pulses can be matched. For instance, the Nordskog sensor will output 8000 or 16000 pulses per mile. If that is in the general pulse range of the CCS100, it should work great. The "RPM control system" that Billy used senses RPM based off a hall effect sensor that is triggered by magnets mounted on the shaft coupling. The control module for this unit simply modulates the throttle to maintain actual RPM equal to the RPM setpoint (speed setpoint). There should be really no difference if the pulses are coming from the RPM hall effect sensor or a GPS speed indicator. I'd love to try and sort this out, but my GPS analog speedo project hinges on a ebay find for the speedo. I'll document the project when I dive into it. I doubt I'll incorporate the speed control as my foot throttle is not spring return (set it and forget it). I have some fact sheets on the GPS speed sensor if anyone wants them. If I got any facts on the CCS100 wrong, please correct me. |
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RainDog
Platinum Member Joined: February-21-2007 Location: Mke/Grn Lake WI Status: Offline Points: 1387 |
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I just checked the Audiovox instructions for the CCS100. It can be configured for a 8000 pulse per mile signal.
I'm 95% certain that the Nordskog GPS S9020 ($192 at Summit) can be used to drive the Audiovox CCS100 ($86) for a Zero Off type GPS speed control for a grand total of $278 in hardware. The only thing lacking is an accurate speed indicator. You should be able to add a digital or analog GPS driven (no Pitot tubes!) electronic speedometer for another $100 or so. Pretty cool, me thinks. |
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azeus17
Gold Member Joined: August-19-2007 Location: Grand Rapids, M Status: Offline Points: 576 |
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Very cool. I don't really care what the speed is, just that it holds steady. Also, if you wanted to know the exact speed, you could also just use a hand held GPS.
But, for a grand total of just under $400, that is a sweet deal, if we could make it work. I am going to have to look into this a bit more, maybe enlist some help at work. Let me know if you make any progress, Steve, and I will do the same. Thanks for the info. Adam |
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Boats:
Current: 02 SANTE Sold: 89 Sport Nautique |
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RainDog
Platinum Member Joined: February-21-2007 Location: Mke/Grn Lake WI Status: Offline Points: 1387 |
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Adam,
Send an email to me and I'll forward all the installation instructions and data sheets I have. I also just read that the Nordskog GPS unit has 2 pulsed wires. It would be easy to send one to the cruise control and another to a speedo. |
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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Steve,tried to call you today. Have a question as to the install of the Gps unit on my Redneck Perfect Pass.
I have got the system working to my satisfaction, but a little tweaking is still in order. I also have an issue as to where the receiver would mount.I assume it is line of site as with my satellite radio.Had a time hiding the thing so it did not look obvious. Boat dr |
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azeus17
Gold Member Joined: August-19-2007 Location: Grand Rapids, M Status: Offline Points: 576 |
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Steve-
Got your email. Thanks for the info. Seems pretty straight forward, just need to put it all together. With Doc's help on rigging the Audiovox system, we should have this going in no time. It sounds like the good Doc may be the first as he has a jump on us Doc, you may have mentioned this already in the other thread, but how is the system disengaged? Only by pressing the "cancel" button, or can you pull back on the throttle as well. Anyone have a source for a electronic, analog, speedometer that does not go up to 120MPH? All the ones I seem to be finding go way to high and make it hard to read the small incriments that we will need. I guess I could go digital for the GPS speedo and replace the old clock and keep the factory speedometer for its good looks. |
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Boats:
Current: 02 SANTE Sold: 89 Sport Nautique |
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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azeus17,a hand held GPS unit will do the job.As to disengage the unit simply bump the throttle.Same feature as using this system on a man. shift car.It will sense an over rev situation and "kick it out"
Also by simply turning it off at the panel. The resume feature is what I really like, but it will not work from a dead stop in the water,1000 rpm min. engage. Have a call into Raindog now to find out how this can be modified or not. That would be too cool, kinda like "PLUG AND PLAY"................Boat dr |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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next thing you know you guys will be installing A/C on the boats
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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Eric, I did that mod last year.You musta had your head up your as# and did not see the post???? Sometimes I forget your address...
Well so much for me thinking you read all the posts on this site.... Call if you want details and costs involved in the install..........Boat dr |
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RainDog
Platinum Member Joined: February-21-2007 Location: Mke/Grn Lake WI Status: Offline Points: 1387 |
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The Stewart Warner 82637 or a 82642 is a 5-85 mph electronic speedo. It also happens to match my existing gauges nicely. I call dibs on the next one listed on ebay
Good news about the over-rev cancel feature. I read about it but I didn't know if it was sensitive enough to work on boats. Doc, I'll call you this weekend. I haven't been near a land line at a decent hour to have a proper conversation. |
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The Dude
Platinum Member Joined: October-19-2004 Location: Houston Status: Offline Points: 1334 |
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what about brakes?
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Mullet Free since 93
95 Sport |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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the best question i get is, what kind of torque converter do these boats have and its asked pretty often
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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I had a good one the other day too! I was asked why they don't use a hybrid (gas engine/electric motor) in a boat like they do the cars. Hopefully my explanation of the motor braking and regen principle sunk in!!! |
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65 'cuda
Platinum Member Joined: July-12-2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Status: Offline Points: 1091 |
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I think most of the torque converters would be acme's, federal's, OJ's, etc.
I think you missed a business opportunity here, Eric, you don't charge for torque converter r and r, inspection, and service? |
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Stunt Driver
Newbie Joined: April-30-2015 Location: Hillsboro, OR Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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Working to solve issue just like in original post. $5k boat. Not investing $1500 in PP.
Near impossible to find driver who can keep speed constant. Talked with colleague who can invest some time/skills into developing a basic system. Based on Arduino platform, with proper coding to turn it into a speed control system. May look and feel similar to Perfect pass, but solely for keeping constant speed. Allthou misc data like temp/rpm/time can be shown. Wonder if any interest? Current plan is to have a kit, that is installable by a normal handy person, some filing/drilling may be requried. With GPS only speed input, and external antenna - kit is pencelling out around $200. Kit can |
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namart2001
Newbie Joined: March-16-2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 21 |
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I'd be super interested at $200 and I know at least 2 good friends not on these forums would probably be interested as well. Like you, I would love to have PP but couldn't ever justify spending $1000+ to install one on a $5000 boat, and while my wife is great at driving in general, I think everyone would have a lot more fun with a cruise control system.
Also I'm sure there's a lot of people out there like myself that would feel comfortable installing a kit, but not necessarily capable of assembling one from scratch. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Keep in mind you are adding a cruise control which in my opinion will not be precise enough for the course. When Billy built his, it was his intention since with his foot throttle, his leg and foot was getting tired!
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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Also keep in mind, the price point benchmark for any homemade system is not the $1,500 Perfect Pass Stargazer, but the $675 Perfect Pass RPM Cruise:
http://www.perfectpass.com/?q=ppcruise Once you know what RPM correlates to what MPH, the RPM way can hold things pretty close. |
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Stunt Driver
Newbie Joined: April-30-2015 Location: Hillsboro, OR Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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Thank you all for replies, this helps. I will give it a try to make this kit available at around $200. Good reason to design proper board, vs a spider net of wires I have now.
By no means it will be a competitor to PP or RS, rather aiming at segment of boaters like us, the $5k crowd:) 8122pbrainard - my goal is to have a precise control. Down to 0.5mph. However! adjusting of PID coefficients will likely be requried for each specific boat. Or maybe not. I yet have to water test it. So far it works fine on the bench. Bri892001 - thanks for the link! but i'd be ashamed of myself to work on decade+ old solution. I envision mine much closer to Stargazer, but without complications like skis-slalom-magnet-corses-whateverelse there is, that i won't ever use. I will greatly appreciate advise and evaluations of what I have. I torn apart my old speedo (as it was dead anyway) and plan to assemble kit into it. Looking for source of new cans/cases like that - it would be much nicer, vs in a plain box with the planned kit - help appreciated here!! Here is what I have at the monent. Unit picks up speed from pc fan, which is controlled thru a pot, which in turn is driven by servo, controlled by my unit. Speed->Unit->servo->pot->fan (closed loop) Display is live, it is not just a mock up picture. RPM is not hooked up. Servo line - shows amount of de-throttling. 198 number is my debug value. At this moment i'm strugging to have GPS and paddlewheel pickup work accurate at the same time (may have to choose ither/or). WTR temperature will measure at paddlewheel, but now is showing temperature inside enclosure (VR is running hotter that i'd like). Voltage - is your boat battery. Time is from GPS. Main speed is in center, used for control Secondary speed at upper left - for reference, would be interesting to see how they differ upstream vs downstream. Single knob control, to adjust set speed, turn it off, and enter menu with coefficients. What do you think? Im also open to ideas what may be usefull to add. |
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1999 Bayliner Capri - aka poor man's Nautique
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Stunt Driver
Newbie Joined: April-30-2015 Location: Hillsboro, OR Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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And here is water test.
Clearly room for improvement, but hey, it's working!! And keeping speed within 1kt is not bad. I take speed solely from GPS, and guess what - it's 0.8sec old when it spits out... I wish I knew what PP and SP are using - better math, or better HW? Working to add RPM or Paddle wheel as secondary input. But my mathematicians (aka me and my wife) are working to tune control algorithm. By the way, any help from person with deep PID knowledge - is desperately needed! ps Not sure what happenned at mid point of graph, probably couple speed values were computed wrong. But that is correctable. |
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1999 Bayliner Capri - aka poor man's Nautique
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Dmitry,
I'm impressed. You sure have done a great job with designing the system. I wish I had a better in depth knowledge of PID to help but I; have a feeling you will overcome the minor issues. As you mention, I'd say the second input from the paddle wheel and then some parameter adjustments will get you even closer to an already fantastic result. How about a picture of the servo/stepper on the engine? I'm curious as to whats on that end as well as it's drive. |
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Stunt Driver
Newbie Joined: April-30-2015 Location: Hillsboro, OR Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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For actuator I decided to go with OTS approach (off the shelf).
RC servo with custom made bracket. Benefits 1 - Cheaper, replacement parts are widely available for self service 2 - Easy to control 3 - one can make it himself for $15 cost. Downsides 1 - Requires setting zero point manually For this summer i'm definitely sticking with this solution, i will see if any downsides to it, and if I have to move to stepper motor pulling/relaxing throttle cable. Here is a video of it in action. I went extra mile to give it ability to slip to neutral, to avoid servo preventing cable return if servo is stuck for example, but now i think it is overcomplication, as servo can be overridden by moderate force. So fixed arm on servo, wtih hole about 20mm from axis is ok. As i'm not aware of cable only link to carb, it always seem to have rigid rod on the carb side. https://youtu.be/tnYShy6vqc4 |
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1999 Bayliner Capri - aka poor man's Nautique
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Stunt Driver
Newbie Joined: April-30-2015 Location: Hillsboro, OR Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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Since I don't have better place with people who care, Another question - would you prefer dashboard unit like above, or to use Android phone to show speed and control setpoint?
In that case, android will communicate with computing unit by bluetooth. I have launched small free web site, which interested people can bookmark, and watch for updates (even RSS is available for blog!). Please keep me company! SteadyPass ps you can guess by the name - i am inspired by both PP and RS :) |
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1999 Bayliner Capri - aka poor man's Nautique
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