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Where is my oil going?

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79Tique View Drop Down
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    Posted: September-02-2008 at 7:26pm
My 94 Nautique with a PCM 351, carb is burning oil. It has 575 hours on it, 490 of the hours were from the previous owner. I do not know how good they were about care. I'm meticulous about care, and so I notice the oil burning. I notice oil smoke when I cold start it and a little at idle. I never smell oil smoke while skiing or see it while on the throttle. The motor runs great, with good power, and tone. It only holds a tune up for about 50 running hours; this may not be related (see my carbon in distributer thread).

I'm wondering how it's burning the oil. Do you guy's think it's valves and I could get away with doing a valve job or do I need to do rings as well?

If this were a European car with moderate to low miles like the hours represent on the boat I would do valves and not consider the rings. I'm not as familiar with the Ford stuff in a ski boat.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 81nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2008 at 7:57pm
Do you have to add oil to it between oil changes? I'm questioning whether it's oil or fuel smoke your seeing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 74SkiNautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2008 at 8:13pm
Fuel smoke is more black, and Oil smoke is more blue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2008 at 10:04pm
Yes, I'm adding about a quart every two tanks of gas. or 8-10 running hours. It's blue oil smoke.
I tried changing to a thicker oil and it only helped a very little.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nuttyskier2002 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2008 at 10:09pm
79Tique, Run your engine and get it to operating temp. Then pull your oil filler cap then remove the PVC hose from the valve and plug it. Start the engine and see if you see smoke puffing out of the valve cover. If you do the rings are worn and a valve job will not do you any good. You may be in luck though because a little smoke at startup only usually means worn valves.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2008 at 10:19pm
nuttyskier2002, Are you saying pull the hose from the valve cover to the carb?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stang72 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2008 at 3:44am
Yes...the one going from the carb spacer to the PVC valve at the cover.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2008 at 10:10am
a compression test wouldnt hurt either, after you do the above, if you are getting alot of blow by you will see alot of brown/tan sludge down inside the valve covers. have you pulled a plug and checked how it is burning?
did the PO pull the old hour meter trick?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2008 at 2:47pm
Eric,

I have changed the plugs a few times as the motor only holds a tune up for about 40-50 hours. The plugs are black,wet and oily.

I think the hour meter is correct as I have been inside the dash to install the Perfect Pass and the wire connections on the meter are original and unbroken. The guy who owned it was not mechanical at all and I suspect they did not change oil as he should have. He and his brother were pretty good skiers and they used the boat to ski the course at 34-36 mph and that is about all they did. So it was pulling pretty hard most of the time.

The rest of the boat is in fantastic shape the trans runs great. I replaced the alternator, starter, all the ignition parts, and a bunch of other stuff this spring so after the motor is fixed it will be a like new boat. I'm committed to fixing it, but don't want to do more than what's needed.

I'm thinking because of the low hours and how smooth the motor runs that I might have some bad valve guides. I'm inclined to pull the heads when the season is over do a good valve job, but if experienced folks think I should do rings or more I'll take that project on.

I'm looking for some opinions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2008 at 3:02pm
black oily and wet is not good for the plugs at all, guess start with a leak down test, no need for a compression test, leak down will nail it down to the rings or the valves and/or guides for each cylinder so you should be armed with enough information after that to determind whether a full blown rebuild is in order or if you just need to do the top end.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2008 at 4:58pm
How is a leak down test done? if you have the time to describe it.

Thanks for the the suggestions.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2008 at 5:13pm
explaination

basicly what you do is get the tester you have to have a compressor to do the test, but one cyclinder at a time bring it to TDC on the compression stroke after removing the plug so you can tell it's on the right stroke, then hook up the gauge and read it to see the percentage of leakage, usually there is a scale that shows good and bad but not all do. Normally there is always a little past the rings, excessive means the rings are shot, if you remove the PCV valve or breather on the other side and hear it there it's the valve guides, through the carb or exhaust is a valve issue, oil pan it's the rings.

sorry for not being a little more specific just know how to do it and where to get the tester and hoses out of the tool box to perform the test. I'm not an Encyclopedia like doc thinks I should be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2008 at 5:49pm
That's great. Thanks for your explanation and the attached. I'll do the test over the next few days and see what's up.

Thanks again for the help; this is exactly what I was looking for.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2008 at 6:27pm
79N, How do I be sure I have TDC on a given cylinder?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nuttyskier2002 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2008 at 4:14am
Originally posted by 79nautique 79nautique wrote:

explaination

if you remove the PCV valve or breather on the other side and hear it there it's the valve guides,


How can air leak past the valve guides without leaking past the valves first. And then wouldn't you hear it in either the intake or exhaust?

I think it's safe to say that you can't check valve guides with a compression tester.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nuttyskier2002 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2008 at 4:26am
Originally posted by 79Tique 79Tique wrote:

79N, How do I be sure I have TDC on a given cylinder?


79Tique, you don't have to get the piston exactly on TDC, just get it close so that both valves are closed. Start at #1 and follow the firing order. Use your timing marks for #1 and then turn your crank over by hand 1/4 turn to get the next cylinder to TDC. You may need to use a breaker bar or long 1/2 ratchet to lock the crank in place when you feed the cylinder the air pressure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2008 at 2:24pm
OK, Thanks I'll figure it out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote h20loo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2008 at 8:57pm
Valve seals?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2008 at 9:14pm
Originally posted by nuttyskier2002 nuttyskier2002 wrote:


How can air leak past the valve guides without leaking past the valves first. And then wouldn't you hear it in either the intake or exhaust?

I think it's safe to say that you can't check valve guides with a compression tester.


got to keep you on your toes was expecting Billy to chime in.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2008 at 10:10pm
Originally posted by h20loo h20loo wrote:

Valve seals?

Yeh, that question came up around here too. Does anyone know if the valve seals on this motor can be replaced with out pulling the heads?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2008 at 10:14pm
Originally posted by nuttyskier2002 nuttyskier2002 wrote:

Originally posted by 79nautique 79nautique wrote:

explaination

if you remove the PCV valve or breather on the other side and hear it there it's the valve guides,


How can air leak past the valve guides without leaking past the valves first. And then wouldn't you hear it in either the intake or exhaust?

I think it's safe to say that you can't check valve guides with a compression tester.


At least I can find out if I can get away with just a valve job. It would be nice to leave the motor in the boat.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote h20loo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2008 at 10:26pm
Originally posted by 79Tique 79Tique wrote:

Originally posted by h20loo h20loo wrote:

Valve seals?

Yeh, that question came up around here too. Does anyone know if the valve seals on this motor can be replaced with out pulling the heads?


After you have done all the compression tests wet and dry, decarbonized the engine and everything is healthy but you still get cold start oil smo0ke then...
Valve seals can be done in the boat using compressed air in the sparkplug hole(or cotton rope pressed in the combustion chamber) and then a valve spring compresser to remove the keepers, spring, and valve seal.
Two tips- use the regular rubber seals as they are most forgiving and give all the valve keepers a good rap with a wooden mallet before you start.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-05-2008 at 7:30pm

[/QUOTE]
After you have done all the compression tests wet and dry, decarbonized the engine and everything is healthy but you still get cold start oil smo0ke then...
Valve seals can be done in the boat using compressed air in the sparkplug hole(or cotton rope pressed in the combustion chamber) and then a valve spring compresser to remove the keepers, spring, and valve seal.
Two tips- use the regular rubber seals as they are most forgiving and give all the valve keepers a good rap with a wooden mallet before you start.[/QUOTE]

When you say wet and dry do you mean with and with out oil? How would you recommend decarbonizing the motor?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote h20loo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-06-2008 at 12:37am
Dry compression test first. All plugs out,WOT, screwin compression gauge.
If the #s are not what you want then put a shot of oil in each cylinder as you do the test over. Significant difference would indicate a mechanical problem with that cylinder- anything from a stuck(carbon or rust)ring to a broken ring or cracked or melted piston or a scored cylinder wall.
You have a product called seafoam down ther e that sounds like good stuff. I would mix it with trans fluid and fog about a pint thru the carb(2500 rpm). When you have about a quarter left you dump it all in to choke out the motor. Let it sit for at least a few hours and then take it for a run. Don't drive thru an environmentalist convention!! You can also use a crankcase additive a while before you change the oil. Short of disassembly- this is as clean and lubricated as you will get this motor.
Ofcourse this is my method and I've learned over the years that there are many ways to skin a.....

Edit- just reread the black oily plugs part. I think you need a tear down.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2008 at 3:32am
Does the black oily plugs make you think rings?
I'm hoping do get away with just pulling the heads and doing a valve job. I ordered a leak down test from the local auto parts store so I should get a this figured out this week.

If I use my compression test gauge and turn the motor until cylinder #1 is holding compression I can assume I have close enough to TDC for the leak down test?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2008 at 10:12am
this is an old school trick i and probably shouldnt mention it but it did work for me on a carboned up diesel engine, a couple of the valves were not closing because of all the idleing and the carbon build up on the seats.I knew this because of the excessive valve clearance
I ran the engine at full governed speed and used a spray bottle of water down the throat, as soon as the water (alot) hits the cylinder it turns to steam and breaks up the carbon instantly....use your own judgement if you try this, would i recommend it? it worked for me with no after effects except for getting rid of the carbon
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-09-2008 at 9:55pm
I don't think this motor is carboned up. The PO ran premium fuel and at pretty high RPM all the time. It has done very little idling. I still have not done the leak down test, but I'm thinking it might have some broken valve seals.

As I said above the motor runs great; 44MPH with the stock 351, and idles smooth starts easy. Just blows a lot of blue smoke right when started.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-10-2008 at 10:25pm
I did a compression test and got 110 on three of the cylinders 115-118 on a couple and 125 on the rest. What do you guys think of these numbers on a cold motor?

Interestingly the cylinders with 125 hand a lot of oil on spark plugs with less than 10 hours on them. The cylinders that showed 110 on the compression test had dry clean plugs .

I want to put some oil down the spark plug holes and rerun the test and see if the numbers change with that. How much oil should I put in each cylinder to check the rings?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nuttyskier2002 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-11-2008 at 5:29am
A couple of squirts with an oil can. Use motor oil....preferably the same as you are running in the crankcase. Spin the engine over several times to get the excess out. You don't want the oil to take up any volume in the cylinder. That would give you a false higher reading.

The lowest and highest cylinders should be within 10% of each other to be acceptable. Your readings fall into the marginal category. Post back with your second test using oil in the cylinders.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-11-2008 at 6:28pm
I'm a little confused. I did a leak down test and heard hissing in the valve cover with the oil fill cap off. On a few cylinders the hissing was louder at the oil fill cap. Also heard hissing at the oil pan for all cylinders.

Then I reran the compression test with a couple of squirts of oil in the cylinder and the compression test went up to 200 on the first cylinder. On the 2nd cylinder I put one squirt of oil in and compression went up to 140. I think I'm using too much oil? If the quantity of oil affects this test so much how can it be very accurate?

Do any of you know what stock compression on a PCM 351 is?
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