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backfire at startup to plane

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tommer12 View Drop Down
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    Posted: May-29-2006 at 11:23pm
This one is boggling me and I have not figured it out. Could be old gas, crap gas, or ?
92 Nautique PCM 351 (not the HO)

Through the entire RPM range, runs like a champ... no backfires at all. But from neutral to when you "hit it" or "drop the hammer" I get a backfire in the engine, if I pull back she picks up to speed to fine to full throttle.. no surges, nothing.. just when you first hit it.

I seem to think it is not timing because it has the electronic ingintion system. I'm leaning towards the holley carb... is it too lean or too rich? Seems like if you drop it into foward, throttle to full to a quick pick up, it's either flooding itself out or not enough fuel and it backfires. (forgot which one causes a backfire.

Here is what has been done:
new plugs
new fuel/water filter
oil changed


The only thing I usually do, I have not done yet, is through some carb cleaner down the carb while at the dock and run it through.. just to make sure it's clean....   but I have a feeling it be something else that needs adjusting.

Any tips?

Thanks much!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-30-2006 at 8:13am
you may have a bad power valve, but it normally would backfire more offten. So it mostly is a lean condition double check the accel pump. Disconnect the throtle cable at the carb and with the engine off, remove the flame arrestor and move the throtle slowly as you look down the primary barrels, (front) and make sure you have a constant and steady flow of gas for the full stroke of the throtle. It should start squirtting full as soon as you move it. If you have a constant stream for the full stroke then I would get a new 6.5 power valve. double check the base timing to be sure it's alright. Just because it's electronic doesn't mean you can forget about it you still have to have it set right. If it's the newer style all it does is elimate the mechanical advance unless it's a distributorless system like the PROTEC that uses crank and cam sensors then on that style you don't have to do anything.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommer12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-30-2006 at 12:09pm
Actually, it is the ProTec system. Sorry, forgot about that.    I have heard in older Holley's that if it backfires once, the power valve is probably blown or broken.

I'll check the fuel flow down the throttle body tonight if I have time.

Is this replacement procedure for a power valve?

http://www.advanceautoparts.com/english/youcan/html/pht/pht20011001cb.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-30-2006 at 8:04pm
usually when the power valve is blown it backfires more than once and at different rpm's. I would look closely at the coil packs since you have a protec system. On a DIS type system each coil pack fires two cylinders and it fires the plug with least resistance or the one on the compression stroke. And if the epoxy cracks or the primary or secondary coil shorts it will mis fire. Double check the firing order and make sure a plug wire isn't crossed first but then your are going to have to track down which pack is bad to solve the problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommer12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-30-2006 at 11:42pm
If a plug wire is crossed, it would probably backfire through the entire RPM range correct? Not just out of the hole.   And if the coil pack is cracked, would it miss or not come to full power all the way through the RPM to Wide open throttle?

Thanks for your help.. Appreciate it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-31-2006 at 4:17pm
the coil pack can misfire intermittently under load and not all of the time or through the whole rpm range. The protec system is a motorola design and a poor one at that, it is simular to the first DIS they used on the late 80's Buick V6's as well which never lasted very long. As far as the firing order and the plug wires being crossed if you used the wrong firing order, which many have done on this site, it appears as a slight rough idle, that at lot of people assume is nornmal or the cam, and it doesn't show up as a misfire until under heavy load. Now you can do what you want and question my suggestions but I do know a little about DIS systems, if you would like, take a look at any QUAD 4, NORTHSTAR, or 6.0 liter GM motor and tell me what you think of my ignition system designs. enjoy the .02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommer12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-31-2006 at 7:57pm
Ok, I will check the firing ordering to make sure no wires are crossed.   I did have this problem in my 84' with a wire crossed, but it would backfire right from starting it. So what you are saying is the DIS corrects what it can from the misfire, but the backfires "slip" by when under load.   

thanks!   I still have to check the amount fuel dumping down the carb to ensure that is correct. Flash light was out of juice last night.


tc

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-01-2006 at 7:52am
I'm saying is in the early stages of a coil pack breaking down internally it will act normal until a heavy load or demand is required. Each coil pack has two towers to fire two different plugs but the signal to fire each is the same, there is not a unque signal to tell it to fire the left tower one time and the right tower the next time, it's accomplished by the principle that electricty follows the path of least resistance and by the piston appling compression on the spark plug it lowers it's resistance thus creating the path of least resistance, but if there is a slight sort internally to one of the windings in the coil pack it can change this resistance and fire the wrong plug.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommer12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-01-2006 at 7:27pm
Thanks for your help....

One more note.... When I first pulled it out of the garage this season, I took it out on the water for a leasurely cruise. I noticed at about 3k rpm she would not be hitting on all cyclinders and start surging ever so slightly... you could feel it "hit" every now and then. So I increased the speed, then it started to backfire repeatly, probably because it was getting too much fuel I assume, I would pull back to 3k or below to recover.
This is when I replaced all the plugs, fuel filter, changed the oil, etc.    Then this posting.... the high end was fine, no backfires. Just under load or out of the hole.

So maybe you are right... the packs are giving out and just a matter of time before it completely does not run?

If it is the packs, do you recommend buying a new coil pack for this, replace it with something else?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommer12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-01-2006 at 7:33pm
Talking to my dealer, he thinks it's the power valve on the carb is shot.   He said if it was the coil pack, I would be having problems through the whole RPM range.

I'll try a cheap part first and see what happens.

Thanks again!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-01-2006 at 9:03pm
you will want to pull the two plug wires from one coil back at a time, you are looking for the mis to be gone not that it's down on power or idles a little rough which it will, you don't have to run it very long at all a couple of minutes on each pack until you find which one it is. After you do the first one connect them pback and let it idle or take it for a spin before you do the next one, to clean up the plugs that where not firing, disconnect it at the pack and not the plug and wrap a piece of tape on one wire so you know which side it was on.

What you discriped on your one more note sounds like a fuel pump issue and not ignition issue. So while you have the line off to replace the power vlave throw a fuel pressure gauge on it and double check that the pressure is where it should be 5 psi.
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