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Okie Boarder
Gold Member Joined: August-31-2009 Location: OK Status: Offline Points: 779 |
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Chuck said it very well. The Bible is meant to be taken as a whole and not nitpicked. The history and law he talks about is important to understand. The reasons those laws existed are very important. One interesting thing to note that Chuck touched on is law and how people tried to live to it. As you read through the entire Bible and see what transpired on the OT and what transpired with Jesus a few things become very apparent.
1. People of the time were so busy trying to live up to the "rules" they were ignoring the relationship with God. Sort of like if your kids were so busy doing their chores and homework and obeying the rules of the house that they never really took time to spend with Mom and Dad. 2. "Religion" had become people's god. People were paying more attention to their rituals and procedures, along with trying to proclaim their "goodness" and judge others than they were worshipping and building a relationship with God. 3. Jesus came along to reteach people that the key to a relationship with God while here on earth, and eternity with Him later is to focus our lives on Him. Jesus showed us how to love the lord, love others, and asked us to spread that love and His teachings to others to help them do the same. He spent His life serving others and teaching about God and how to further develop a relationship with him. You'll notice He didn't talk about rules, "religion", and judging others like much of the traditional law was set up to do. He was showing us a radically different way to live our lives and bring glory to God. Ultimately you can pick apart the Bible all you want and you can rationalize a lot of different perspectives about what it is saying. As Chuck said, though, there is a very common thread throughout the entire Bible that shows God simply wants to have a relationship with us and He loves us. It is also very clear what He hates and how we should strive to distance ourselves from that. |
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The Lake
Platinum Member Joined: May-13-2005 Location: Lk Winnebago MO Status: Offline Points: 1157 |
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Hi Phil, The piece of scripture you are referring to in Luke 19 is a part of a larger story that shows people how God is calling us to join His Kingdom to make a better world. The verse you reference is an illustration and not meant to be taken literally. Sort of like when people say in jest "I could just kill you." The same with the Proverb you mention. The Proverbs are similar to other ancient writings common to middle east wisdom literature. They are pithy sayings that are not meant to be taken literally but to make a point. The point in this Proverb being: a child raised without discipline is spoiled. The point is not to beat your child with rods. Jesus indeed said that He came to fulfill the law; and he did. The point of the law (the old covenant) was to give people a way to live. It was practical, the ten commandments of Deuteronomy are the summary of the law. Some of those laws are archaic and even barbaric sounding. But it is unfair for us and our understanding and our morality to go backwards and lay that morality at the feet of an entirely different culture. Jesus fulfilled the law by getting people beyond the legalism of it. In other words Jesus doesn't want us to do good because it would break the law to not do good; Jesus actually wants us to know we are loved and then to love, in so doing we fulfill the original purpose of the law which was to "Love the Lord with all your heart." Jesus fulfilled that by then saying "and love your neighbor as yourself." Scripture should not be used one verse at a time to prove or disprove. Again, I will say that the totality of scripture, including the New Testament, points to love. The cumulative teachings of Jesus all point to how much God loves us. Phil, for me, it is always about love, forgiveness, mercy, justice. These are common themes of Scripture, and I am incapable of applying those qualities in my relationships with others without God. That being said, I don't want in any way to imply you are not a good person, that you don't act with kindness. I'm just saying for me, that to live in peace, to experience kindness, to be forgiven, and to be forgiving . . . it's God. It really is good talking you, thanks for your time, Chuck |
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phospher
Gold Member Joined: July-19-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 557 |
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Ha Ha. No, that's funny though. I wasn't part of the systematic molesting of children. If I was I would be really rich right now cause I would have sued the crap out of that wealthy Church. Funny how god works though (sarcastic). In my opinion, more evidence that god can't do a damn thing here on earth. I think the Catholic church is the worst of all the Christian Churches. When the pope goes to Africa where aids is a pandemic problem and says that condoms could make the problem worse you really have to ask yourself WTF he's thinking. |
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phospher
Gold Member Joined: July-19-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 557 |
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Unfortunately for Christians, there is no place in the books that says when you get to the new world and you develop your three branches of government and you have a modern society you can jettison all the barbarism I recommended in the first books(leviticus, exodus,deuteronomy). Why is it that no one ever says these books are immoral? Christians just say they don't have to do this anymore because Jesus brought us the doctrine of grace. But Jesus also said that "Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled" If this is the best book that we have, as it says in proverbs, people should be beating their children with rods. You decide what is good in the good book. You cherry pick these books based on your own ethical intuitions. When I hear Christians say things like, "There's nothing you can say that will change my mind". Just imagine something like that being said in medicine. Statements like that prove that you are not taking any state of the world into account into your beliefs. Truth is, this stuff can be found in the New Testament also. "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." -Luke 19:27 |
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502Python
Senior Member Joined: August-03-2009 Location: Clifton IL Status: Offline Points: 167 |
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Phosphor, this is a difficult question to ask and I don't want you to think I am being sarcastic. Were you subjected to some sort of trauma while you were Catholic, perhaps by a trusted member of the church?
Again, not trying to be hurtful, but an honest question. |
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1999 Sport Nautique-Python Powered
1999 Ski Nautique-Python Powered |
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phospher
Gold Member Joined: July-19-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 557 |
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No, can't believe that. Ever wonder where all the ghosts are from 9/11? Why is it that there are these one off ghost sightings in random places but they never happen at locations where thousands of people have been slaughtered? Considering how many people have died through out the history of the world, one would think that the signs of ghosts would be everywhere.
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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not when 2 people see the same thing, your body creates heat which is energy, that energy will leave your body....whether its in the form of a soul or something to that nature
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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phospher
Gold Member Joined: July-19-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 557 |
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Like ghosts? No, I don't believe in that or anything supernatural for that matter. The mind can be a very powerful thing. It's all psychological. |
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eric lavine
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usually the virgins are fat and ugly quinner, but they do specialize....
Phil, do you believe in the unexplainable?, apparitions, I personally have had encounters and sitting here thinking about still makes the hair raise on my arms |
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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phospher
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I was just curious. I was not looking to set you up for anything.
Quinner, You guys probably think that's crazy right? But it's no different than many of the claims Christianity makes.
Eric, Thanks for the comments. Actually, I think that when you die that's it your dead. Lights out, no after life, no reincarnation no anything. That's why I like to say you only live once. |
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quinner
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72 Virgins |
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eric lavine
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Phil, I didnt read thru so i do have to ask, what do you think happens once we die?
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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look at it this way, Faith is like a fresh tune-up for your soul, good thoughts bring good results, a belief comes from within and guides you daily, I am in no way a thumper and i have this same discussion with my neihgbor because he is the furthest man from believing in God......yes, i do respect him because he is older than me, I question Gods existance many times because of war, earthqaukes, floods, I 100% respect your thoughts Phil, the Bible is a manual to guide you thru life to choose the right path between good and evil. I dont think any less or anymore of you because of your beliefs. like i said, you try to rationalize the way things are in todays society and it does make you wonder where God is in the grand scheme of things. if it wernt for the commandments, i wouldve probably killed at least 10 people already, woman?? dont even go there, thats what guides me everyday, when i sit in my car on the way to work, I talk to whats refered to as God, my wife has no idea I pray, but it brings out the good in people
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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hasbeenskier
Platinum Member Joined: May-23-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1116 |
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It just hit me.... I have seen God. Just Look at the photos the Hubble is sending back. It can't be coincidence.
bj |
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hasbeenskier
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davee40
Senior Member Joined: May-22-2009 Location: LAKELAND,FL Status: Offline Points: 249 |
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and just to let you know al found my exhaust flappers at n3 fo 10.50 each,beats the hell out of 25.00 @ skidim or overtons
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davee40
lakeland,fl |
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davee40
Senior Member Joined: May-22-2009 Location: LAKELAND,FL Status: Offline Points: 249 |
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so Al you looking for pics of Gods CC .
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davee40
lakeland,fl |
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DrCC
Grand Poobah Joined: April-12-2004 Location: at home Status: Offline Points: 2867 |
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God, Need pics!
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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Phil, I have gone 180 degree's on you and on this subject.At first it made me angry at your questioning God's existence.
That in turn started the thought process my life before and after...... Then came the inventory of my blessings before and after........ Next was my wealth of friends, brothers and sisters before and after. This christian thing really ain't hard to do, and the "perks" out of this world. Thank you for giving me a jump start Phil, I was starting to get a little lax............. Three steps to happiness I CAME I CAME TO I CAME TO BELEIVE |
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davee40
Senior Member Joined: May-22-2009 Location: LAKELAND,FL Status: Offline Points: 249 |
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im curious as to why you would ask that ,or are you setting me up for another one your viable points as to why my experience was mental and not spiritual.
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davee40
lakeland,fl |
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davee40
Senior Member Joined: May-22-2009 Location: LAKELAND,FL Status: Offline Points: 249 |
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As a teen i was wild at heart we went to church on occasion i did what i wanted and never really thought about the fact that God did or did not exist,a friend and i were crusing one night and he pulled into a church parking lot to take p*ss , a young man came out and started talking with us,we all conversated for about an hour ,he ask ask if he could pray with us before we left ,because of the overwhelming feeling that we felt we both accepted christ that night and later were filled with the holy spirit. it changed both of our lives to this day. that was about 29 years ago .why am a christian is ive seen that same love transform lives and take away things from people that no doctor or psycologist could.
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davee40
lakeland,fl |
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Okie Boarder
Gold Member Joined: August-31-2009 Location: OK Status: Offline Points: 779 |
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No. I don't get an audible response. I'll say I get very clear answers though. I'll share a story as an example... My wife and I had moved to SD when I took a job out of college. We were really wanting to be close to our family in CA, but we really couldn't afford to move and were a little financially strapped. We also had a 2nd mortgage on the house that we couldn't afford to pay off. We prayed about it wanting to know God's will but also wanting to express our desire to be close to the family. I was sending out resume's and making contacts but not a lot was happening. We kept praying that God would help show what it was he wanted us to do. An opportunity for a job came up that I interviewed for. The interview went well and during the interview salary requirements came up. My asking salary was about $5k a year higher than their top end, but they told me they would consider it. More prayer ensued and essentially we prayed very specifically about what we wanted to see happen to understand what God's answer was. Here is what we needed for things to really fall into place and be able to move... 1. Salary as mentioned above. 2. Moving expenses covered. 3. Some way to pay off the 2nd mortgage or finance it in some other way. 4. Sell our house for enough that we could pay it off and pay the realtor. I talked to my Dad about #3 to see if they could loan us the money. He couldn't. My Grandma has loaned money to friends and family and charges less than market value interest rates, which helps supplement her income while helping the family member. However, she had all her money out on loans at the time. So, after some time went by, here's what happened... 1. The company offered me the salary I asked for, with a generous moving expense option (Mind you, I never even asked them for moving expenses). 2. I accepted the job pending us selling the house and moving. 3. We placed the house on the market. In a matter of a couple weeks we had an offer that paid the loan and all expenses. 4. Just before the offer on the house came in, my Dad called. Grandma had one of her loans paid in full and now had the money to loan us. So, everything worked out quite well and it was quite a blessing to be back near the folks and have them see our family grow. Looking at all the things that had to fall into place and the things we very specifically prayed for, I can only offer up that God very clearly answered our question of "What do you have in mind for us? Stay here or move back to CA?" |
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phospher
Gold Member Joined: July-19-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 557 |
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I don't tell him there is no god. I can't possibly be certain of that. I tell him it's highly unlikely and there is no reason and no evidence as to why anyone should believe in such a thing. davee40, Also, if I can ask you a question. Why are you Christian? How did you become a Christian? |
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davee40
Senior Member Joined: May-22-2009 Location: LAKELAND,FL Status: Offline Points: 249 |
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it was amusing,i can take a guess on who it was
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davee40
lakeland,fl |
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davee40
Senior Member Joined: May-22-2009 Location: LAKELAND,FL Status: Offline Points: 249 |
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Im not sure how old you son is but im sure he will be having this same disscussion with some one in a few years and be saying the same as you. but hopefully he wont follow in your footsteps ,based on the fact that you teach your kids there is no god
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davee40
lakeland,fl |
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phospher
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LOL I can't believe no one has that username already. |
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phospher
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No, it's not a waste. Does God literally talk to you? Because when my son asks me a question he get's a clear answer with sound and everything his mom might even chime in.
Ok, I agree that Christmas for Christians is the celebration of Jesus' birth. What I disagree with is how it started, for what reasons, and when Jesus' was born. Most Christian religions think it was spring time but they choose December 25th because of Saturnalia. So I think we just disagree with the history of Christmas. Also, if I were to ask most any Christian when Jesus' was born they would certainly say December 25th because they don't really know the bible all that well and the Christians have basically lied to them about this or at least not pointed out the truth. They don't know the real history behind Christmas or about the pagan festivals. This should be part of your teachings. I don't have anything against Christmas and I don't have a problem with people using Jesus' as a role model if it helps them. But for any religion to claim that it is the one and only true word of God is a bit much. |
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davee40
Senior Member Joined: May-22-2009 Location: LAKELAND,FL Status: Offline Points: 249 |
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thats what im talking about real people who know that they know that they know ,that was some good stuff chuck even if phill doesnt get it. me personally i should be dead and i look back on life and know that in all my stupidity god has saved my life for a reason,and when i see my 13 year old daughter holding up her hands and worshiping god through song it all makes since to me. nice point andy on prayer
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davee40
lakeland,fl |
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Okie Boarder
Gold Member Joined: August-31-2009 Location: OK Status: Offline Points: 779 |
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Nope. Simply put, the Bible talks about Jesus’ birth. Christians celebrate Christmas to celebrate Jesus’ birth. Put the two together and you can see that the Bible talks about what we now call Christmas. You don’t seem to agree with it, but it seems pretty obvious to me. As far as when Jesus’ birth really is, usually only those that are trying to somehow discredit the Bible to back up their own belief and somehow rationalize not believing it are the one’s concerned with nitpicking about dates. Most Christians don’t really care and we’d be perfectly fine celebrating in March, October or December (which was picked for whatever reasons).
I'm glad you get the point and I hope others that read this somehow have a better understanding. I disagree about it being apples to oranges. It seems to be a very valid comparison.
Interesting question. It depends on what people are praying for. Therein lies your answer. It isn't a waste when you are praying for God's guidance. Is it a waste for your son to come to you seeking advice? Would you not answer his questions? |
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God
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Phil,
Just wanted to stop by and say hello. Carry On |
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phospher
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If you could only hear yourself from the outside looking in. Let me quote a very wise man. Well, what if I'm wrong. I mean, anybody could be wrong. We could all be wrong about the flying spaghetti monster the pink unicorn and the flying tea pot. You happen to be brought up I would presume in the Christian faith. You know what it's like not to believe in a particular faith because your not a Muslim your not a Hindu. Why aren't you a Hindu? Because you happen to be brought up in America not in India. If you were brought up in India you would be a Hindu, if you were brought up in Denmark in the time of the Vikings you would be believing in Wotan and Thor. If you were brought up in classical Greece you would be believing in Zeus. If you were brought up in central Africa you would be believing in the great Ju Ju of the mountain. There is no particular reason to pick on the the judeo Christian God in which by the shearest accident accident you happen to be be brought up and ask me the question what if I'm wrong. What if your wrong about the great ju ju at the bottom of the sea? Just a silly question to me... |
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