Cutlass, Prop shaft & prop update |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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With the .003 on each side, it sounds it's just where it should be. Yes, with the rubber bushing it would be hard to detect any slop by hand but, I always suggest if you can feel slop, then it's time to check the cutlass. Now, you know if the bushing was hard like a guide or drill bushing, the .003 would be easy to feel the slop! |
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Duane in Indy
Platinum Member Joined: October-26-2015 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1578 |
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003 on each side
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Keep it as original as YOU want it
1978 Mustang (modified) |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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.003 on each side or .006 on each side? |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Think of spreading the bearings farther apart as an even support for the shaft. Sort of like a center bearing support on a long truck drive shaft. |
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 946 |
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Well this is all sounding very good then. I was hoping I wouldn't have to call the nice lady at DIM back and cancel my order lol.
Anyway, as I've got the day off and a few days before my shaft will arrive, I decided to perform Pete's shaft test, just for grins. Sure enough the shaft had a slight bend undetectable to the naked eye - from x.0095 to x.0140, just out of tolerance. Either way I would have needed a new one |
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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Duane in Indy
Platinum Member Joined: October-26-2015 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1578 |
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Huh??? Ya lost me Pete edit, btw the puller is a design that Pete shared with me. Really clever |
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Keep it as original as YOU want it
1978 Mustang (modified) |
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Duane in Indy
Platinum Member Joined: October-26-2015 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1578 |
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IMO double tapered is the ONLY way to go. Sure makes life easier later on. I recommend a new brass key and a new brass nut. And always a new S/S cotter key I even go to the extreme of using a new brass nylock nut that I mill slots into for the cotter key |
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Keep it as original as YOU want it
1978 Mustang (modified) |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11050 |
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So what's the problem, it's sorta almost pretty dry under the boat? |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11050 |
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Joe in Kansas (has a certain ring to it)
Plenty of people have had good luck with ARE Here's some more good double taper reading in the link link I've had shafts from ARE and Croix Gear and not had problems with either. They went together and came apart with about the same force |
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Duane in Indy
Platinum Member Joined: October-26-2015 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1578 |
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Just crawled out from under my boat with my feeler gages. I was able to get a .006 feeler between the shaft and the bushing ID. I have approx 50 hours on the one piece cutlas bearing With that small amount of clearance it is hard to detect any slop.
I am getting as bad as KenO, all this was done in the rain! |
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Keep it as original as YOU want it
1978 Mustang (modified) |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Joe, The play will be reduced when the bushings are pressed into the strut.
You are going with a new shaft correct? |
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 946 |
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Thanks Ken and Pete - very helpful. I don't own an inside mic so just a guess, but I'd say these will actually be a bit on the snug side once installed based on the fit currently.
Pete - Just curious, I re-read the comments above as I breezed through them earlier and had not caught your comment about the GP shafts. When I was reasonably sure I would need a a new shaft earlier this week I did a forum search and I remember coming across several posts regarding ARE double taper shafts. If I'm not mistaken, several of the more experience folks on the forum have recommended them so this morning bright and early I ordered one from skidim. Is there a reason these aren't the way to go now? |
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11050 |
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For the other Joe (from Kansas)
Follow the link for some strut bearing info Pay particular attention to what Duane in Indy says link |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11050 |
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Thanks Joe |
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 946 |
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Pete, mic's from 1.0005 to 1.001 in several places throughout the shaft at the undamaged areas on multiple axes
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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At least the one they sold me was in fact 3/4 per foot - with a taper length of 1.775 inches in a 2.775 inch coupling length... originally designed by Marine Associates of Hudson WI - the parent company of Croix Gear... |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Joe,
Can you do any measuring of the old shaft? Also it sounds like the new cutlass bearings aren't pressed into the strut yet. Pressing them in will collapse the OD/ID slightly. |
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 946 |
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Sorry to interject here, but I just got the old strut bearings out and figured I'd better check the new ones with the good sections of the old shaft before I pressed them in. To me they were a tad loose. I slipped it on from the coupler end as there is a good 12" to 14" before any of the worn areas and even though it didn't rattle around, it wasn't snug either - it would fall straight to the floor if I let it. So how loose is too loose? I don't really want to do this again in a year. I can't verify a part number as there isn't any numbers on them and the PO was the one that purchased them.
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Ken,
I didn't get a chance to measure the actual taper before Charlie picked up the shaft to install in his Cuda. But, just looking at it, I'd say the taper is half the angle and twice as long as the ARE. Yes, it's real close to what Duane makes. It's interesting you mention Croix Gear. General purchases their rough couplings from them! |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11050 |
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Pete
What's the taper on the hub end of the General Propeller shafts? Is it the same 3/4 of an inch per foot as the prop end only shorter? Sounds like what Duane makes Sounds like a Supra double tapered shaft from the 80's too. Ski Supreme too. There's also a place called Croix Gear and Machining making these shafts. I think they were the supplier to Supra back then Croix Gear |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Bruce,
.010" under nominal I'd say is time for a new shaft. |
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7953 |
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Pete, I mean how much wear on the shaft? About everyone I've taken apart has some wear.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Bruce,
As a general rule of thumb,if you can feel any movement at the cutlass then there's too much wear. Joe, Don't count on the saw table being "perfectly" flat. It's platen ground which is one of the least precise methods of grinding. The table could easily be out .003 in the length of the shaft meaning you will not be able to detect the max runout of .003. Put the shaft in V blocks and use a dial indicator on it. But, you need a new shaft anyway! |
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 946 |
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I'm certainly no expert, here least of all. However, as a quick home test I spanned across the worn area of the shaft with a steel straight edge and used a feeler gauge to measure the gap. I'd say no matter who you are one would have to agree that .o30" at it's widest is too much. BTW, the top of the shaft is nearly the same, with an excessive amount of wear similar to this below the collar into the stuffing box. My guess is that the PO - all of them by the looks of it - had never changed the packing and certainly had never changed the cutless bearing. I've already ordered a new 2-piece collar that should be arriving today, and highly suspected I would need a new coupler by the condition of the existing but I was holding off on that till I knew if I needed a new shaft as well. And here I was worried about having a bent shaft and having to replace it..... Funny thing is I've got an industrial shop table saw that I check things like this with (the table is large and perfectly flat) though it's not a mic, you can at least tell if something has a very slight wobble. The shaft seems to be nearly perfect, if it weren't for the wear. |
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7953 |
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How much wear is too much wear?
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Joe,
I'd say it's time for a new shaft and coupling. I don't think I've ever seen that much wear at the cutlass before. The PO must have been running in sandy shallows and or beaching the boat frequently. I recommend a double taper system and suggest going with General Propeller. I see you found the "check your alignment" thread where I reported Charlie's experience with the GP. Single piece cutlass bearings 4, 5 or 6 inches long are still available but the advantage of two piece is more shaft support due to the distance between them and no extra drag because the two piece still have the same surface area. |
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Duane in Indy
Platinum Member Joined: October-26-2015 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1578 |
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I bought my one piece 1" X 1 1/4" X 6" cutlas bearing from deepblueyachtsupply
S/S shaft collar off of e-bay And yes, you will need a new shaft and coupler (without using a mic on it, it appears to have excessive wear.) Some on here may prefer a 2 piece cutlas but I put back in a 1 piece like I took out. |
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Keep it as original as YOU want it
1978 Mustang (modified) |
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 946 |
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Well after 2 evenings of working on it, I've finally gotten the prop shaft out so I could replace the strut bearings. As I had said earlier in a different post, one thing leads to another and before you know it there is a whole other list of stuff to be done. In my case, the "simple" task of pulling the shaft for the bearings opened up a whole other door that I wasn't real sure I wanted to go through. But the bearings appeared to be pretty bad and so before things cascaded I went ahead and pulled the trigger. While in the long run I'll be glad I did, what a can of worms I kicked over!
First, both the safety collar and the engine coupler were completely frozen. Tried everything and virtually nothing worked. Consulted the forum search, google and friends. I even called a very helpful guy in the tech department @ DIM (skidim.com). No go. So last resort, I cut them both off: ( Guess I have a two piece collar now lol ) But here's the real question - although I already know the answer. After pulling the shaft and inspecting it, here is what I found: What do you guys think ... time for a new shaft? And one final thing. A question really. All the research I've done on the subject, all the videos I've watched and such, and everyone talks about, replaces or sells the strut bearings in 2 pieces, about 2" long each. So, what about this that I found after pulling the shaft and inspecting the strut: Looks like a one-piece bearing to me..... Thanks in advance for your input |
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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