Mercury Marine - The value of a union

Mercury Marine Update: Union voted to accept Mercury's offer. So for now it looks like Outboard production will remain in Fond du Lac, WI.

Unions, as mentioned previously were started to take care of the workers.
They have become too big and abuse their power.

Governmnent was started to take care of the citizens.
They have become too big and abuse their power.


Coincidence?..... I don't think so!

No Eric you did not offend me at all,thats the trouble with a forum type setting. If you were to cut me Eric,not all that would come out would be union . If you work in as big of a company as I do, you need some one to back you up,otherwise you'd really be on your own. On the other hand I have seen people do some really stupid things and the union would save their job, then we'd get threatened to get suspended up to and including dismissal for wearing a shirt that had the Ameritech or SBC logo, the previous names of the company, all the while I'm driving their truck the the old decals on the door, the ladders, tents and tools!I wish we had no need for this stuff, unfortunatly we dont live in a perfect world. One example was a boss we had who was just out of the Navy. He would always swear up a blue streak when he talk to us when he was upset. We're guys I heard people swear before,it dosn't bother me. He suspended me 2 days for swearing,not at him but used in a conversation and he was offended. I got my 2 days back.Another time we had a manager from the far south side of Chicago,he didn't like the 50 mile one way ride every day.By the time he got in he was in a bad mood so he'd try to make it tough on us by nitpicking. He didn't last long,the local reps went to his boss, problem solved.
I also see your point of view, my family were all small business men,so I know. Some time at a reunion we'll sit back with a beer and talk about it, for some reason or another I missed you at Green Lake.

First off, this is a great topic, albeit a very passionate one, but it sure is nice to see how people on this board can discuss something like this without resorting to "flaming". Nothing wrong with a good debate and expressing your views.

With that being said, I am a non-union (mfg. engineer) who works with lots of union workers. There are many great points that have been brought up, but to sum it up, I agree with the following:

quinner wrote: My take on the Unions is they were initially needed to ensure proper wages, benefits, pension + a safe work environment to all employees, now when a non union shop can provide the same perhaps the union is not necessary, as Tim described above.

...and I also agree with Mike....:

05 210 wrote:     I think for the most part, there are quite a few good union workers who defend unions because it has paid off for them financially. Funny thing is, those go-getters could do just as well without the unions.    Unfortunately, there are more lazy@ss mofo's than there are go- getters who defend the union because it's a free ride for them and they couldn't make a real living withoutg the union holding there hand.        Mike

I think the times have changed and our economy needs to adapt. Unions had their place and I think they achieved what they needed to at that time.

Eric, the only groups here that are unionized are the pilots and dispatchers. AMFA has tried twice to organize the AMT's and have failed both times. Other airlines that have merged with delta that were unionized were disolved. The blue collar workers are protected here by a seniority based system.Only when you reach foreman status or mangement is when your removed from the seniority list. Thats when you better be worried about your job. With this new merger with NW there is allot of fat coming with it and they've already said that there will be a reduction in the management team. There have been some former AMT's who climbed up the corporate ladder that were let go when times first started getting tough. They were not given the option to return to turning wrenches. Some have been given the option. Guess its a matter of they need more AMT's back on the floor and offer the job to them.

Working here is great as we don't have to punch a clock and the AMT's in charge of the crews take care of those guy's working under them (if you have a good one). You watch my back and I'll watch yours mentality. You pretty much work for yourself as Big Brother is NEVER over your shoulder. In my case,you grab a part off the rack, fix it per the manual, then send it off to final inspection. Pretty cut and dry. In fact if any you guy's are down this way and want to have a "looksie" behind the seens then let me know. I'd be glad to show you around. You'd be shocked at what goes on around here.

Sweat shop NO............."I do my 8 then hit the gate!"

eric lavine wrote: I sit and listen to him and i grit my teeth cause i want his job, medical dental eye

This sentance right here pushes my button Eric-- Go and apply, no one ever said you couldn't. But here's the deal,I started at 148 a week in '77 had to sit in an office as an long distance operator as a temporary employee. Did not know if I ever would make permanent employee or if I would get out of operator services. Was TOLD when I could go to the bathroom or take a break or even my lunch,that changed from day to day and so did my hours, one day I'd be on 10 to 6 next maybe 930 to 530 and the day after I might go in for 4 hours go home for 2 and be back for my other 4 on a split shift. Not many people put up with this they all want to start at the top. Now 32 years later I have a boss who has all of 7 years and does not even know what end of a phone you talk into,telling me I have to hurry up and do more all the while in my 8 hours of sun, rain or snow I have fixxed 4 and driven 70 miles. Lest you get the wrong idea,I'm the 1st in 4 generations who have worked for someone else, my Dad started his business the year before I was born and I was there every day I wasn't in school,til I was 17.

What a sad day it will be for the town of Fond-du-Lac if the vote doesn't go the Union way. Merc has been a stable for the people in that area for decades... However and unfortunately, in this economy and the global market, that eventually all US manufacturers have to face, is that we "are not" competitive when Unions control so much of what cost base our products contain.. Unions, however putting the US into the world market post war, just doesn't have a place anymore due to it's inflexibilities and the supposed contempt on productivity. This is a huge part of the aftermath that finally forces Mfg Companies here to make drastic decisions to manufacture elsewhere.. It's clear it doesn't work anymore. Am I wrong???? It's a real shame where we're headed...

Moj'

I agree with morfoot.


I look at it this way:

If your parents are union and they give that union attitude to you as a kid you won't ever want to better yourself to make more money if you can go to school for 2 years and get in the union. One of the guys on my dock is a UAW worker. He makes more than his girlfriend that is an ER doc. He goes to work to read the paper.

I believe the free market should prevail. Unions and bailouts just hold us back.

Tim

As a mechanic who has worked for DAL for 21+ years and seen 3 mergers come thru the doors Id have to agree with the statement Unions had their place and we are grateful for the work they accomplished to the blue collar worker. Unions have tried to get thier foot in the door several times here at Delta but have been shot down everytime. Management has done some pretty stupid things but has also some good things for the benefit of all employees. I think we(the DAL employees) are spoiled at times because we get 4 weeks vacation,9 holidays, 7 personnal days and a decent paycheck. How many companys out there offer that?
When times are tough then we have all had to pitch in to save our jobs. Yes, we complain about it but its all how you look at it. Delta pays me to fix airplanes/parts at $30 an hour but if the parts aren't coming in and they want me to do a little house keeping by sweeping the floor or paint equipment then I still get paid the same anyway. I better not have the mentality of well thats so and so's job let them do it. Its this mentality that is driven big companies to send stuff abroad.

I know that Unions have said (at other airlines) you are paid to do "A" and not "B". We better not see you doing "B" even if you can or even want too. It's NOT part of "our" contract.

I had a buddy who worked next door at the Ford plant in Hapeville,Ga. His job was an electrician repairing the robots which made the Taurus. Many times at church he say he was on Vacation and I'd ask him. "Geez, you sure have allot of Vacation at Ford." He 'd respond..." Well I'm laid off for 3 weeks but I'm still making 80% of my salary." Hell! Who wouldn't want a job like that. That's why the big 3 are in deep trouble. By the way, they have since closed that Ford plant that was right off the runway and have wiped the facilty off the foundation. The've decided to put in some really nice condo's. You never would have known that an auto manufacturing plant was ever there!

In many cases I believe we asked for this!

now why cant we control the government as the unions control big business?
I could easily come up with 50 union stories from guys i know here in Ohio, secret rooms to where they would punch in and hide all day in these rooms equipped with tv's, refridgerators....other guys punching in for them on rotations, one guy sticks out in my mind when i was doing warranty work down in the mills, he stood there and watched me all day long, I asked him what his story was and he was diagnosed with epilepsy and was a heavy equipment operator....2 fckin years earlier, he was still on the payroll at 36.00 an hour, they told him to try to look busy because he couldnt run the machines anymore. another guy in his barn at home stole i would say 200k in tooling, when ordering tooling it was 1 for the boss, 1 for the shop and 1 for yourself.
I know there were alot of good guys, but my general overview, there was alot of rot in the system and i think it got to the point where the feelings were "hey thier doing it why should'nt I"

Hey guys, I am not saying anyone is wrong or right or its anybody's fault. I am just trying to figure out what value the union brings to the whole equation. In fact I don't think Mercury management has any intention of staying in FDL, WI long term. I hope they don't move to China, but I think you are right that is a very real possibility.

By the way Gary & John, their are still a few companies that go the extra mile. I also am in the telecommunications industry and I'd like to think that in the markets we serve we still provide excellent products, made in America (maybe I should say assembled) and stick with our customers when the proverbial crap hits the fan. Much like you guys, our guys work to get the job done regardless of weather or hours. I have led teams down in the sourthern states after the hurricanes, last year in IA in the floods, up in MN for the bridge collapse and today their are teams out in CA dealing with that mess. As the manager in addition to figuring out who goes where on these deployments, I and the other people in these roles do what ever it takes to get the job done too, from driving forklifts to delivering product and installing to talking with customers and helping them get what they need. Usually these deployments were 7 days a week for 18 hours a day - I would have to force people to go and sleep. That attitude is not gone from the good old USA yet, its just a little harder to find. The work ethic is still here and I see it everyday in the new kids coming to work here - its a little bit of hope.

BTW, the latest update on Mercury, as I watch the 10PM news... Mercury Marine is going to allow another, 3rd (by my count it is actually 4th) vote tomorrow. So the management team is not sticking to their guns on this one. Our wonder Governor (Diamond Jim) Doyle, is trying to take all the credit for getting this vote, where has he been all this time before now? Apparently when they pulled the voting boxes on Monday, the unofficial results were approximately 500 votes and it was to close to call...

Been there done that.Mark my words after they move to Oklahoma, they will close and move manufacturing to China. They bust the union 1st then when their labor force has no say,there off. After the Bell System breakup, this is what AT&T did and I'm sure there are others. HD can't do it yet since they made a big deal over the importation of Jap bikes in the 80's. This is why we are changing to a service economy, the only problem is that providing good service means more than just talking about it.

There is a saying -- Money will go to where it is treated the best. . .

Power people are not going to be told what to do, quite the opposite!

For what it's worth. I worked for Merc a short time while going to school at OSU as a test boat diver testing the Black Scorpion motor. Management seemed very professional and had all thier ducks in a row. It was a good company and a great community to work for. No experiance with unions, but it sounds as the reason for the move would be poor decisions on union management and or a company tyring to get away from a stranglehold. Just MOO

to be viable you need cash flow, hello Stillwater...the economy isnt new news, 2 fckg options concessions or we move....I hate that "we deserve it mentallity" shame on the Union....another tumbleweed town.
i bet the concessions were meager
here is an example of the cost difference
American car 30k... equal slant car brought over on a boat 20k
the high cost of goods attribute right back to the union, they did have thier place in time and were needed
remember, im from a heavy union area and been down in the mills and steel yards...well use to anyways.
skilled union workers are one thing, punching a button or sweeping floors is another.
why should an employee sweeping floors make 30.00 an hour and her friend Lola make 6.50 over at McDonalds?