hard to believe

I maybe one of his missing links. My fathers family tree only goes back to his great grandfather. I believe his great great grandfather may have been a rolling stone and grandma's drawers were a bit loose.

"by our standards..." I was referring to the notion that is held by various current religous denominations that the only way to find your heaven after death is to follow their particular proselytizing method. To this day thousands upon thousands die to make others believe as they do. Jefferson was able to point out the differences as well as the similiarities in the dominant religions of his time and was not afraid to bring those points to light not as a heretic in todays terms but as an eccentric enlightened, learned statesman. His only guideline was as you said that religion was personal and that the government had no business in personal matters. Although I would not be surprised to learn that in his day he was thought of as well outside the mainstream of popular religous wisdom. A politician with his writings today would be shunned. You are right in that Jefferson was wise not to necessarily affiliate himself with any organized religion of the time and it really demonstrates the reason he is revered now. The gap between religion, government, and political correctness is narrowing daily. I would make an argument that we have already begun a holy war with radical and mainstream Muslim and with our relations with Israel.

Rithmetic man,

Well thought. I have previously read the article you site.

When you say that Jefferson was not religious by "our standards" I do not know for certain what you mean. I assume you mean christian standards, and if that is the case, then I understand your view. I don't know what Ernest was saying either, but again, I assume he is also referring to christian standards.

It is interesting that you believe that Jefferson would be labeled a heretic today. I see it the opposite. I think he would more likely have been labeled a heretic in his own day.

Whether a deist, freethinker, or free mason (has not been proved Jefferson was a free mason), it seems clear that Jefferson was religious in the sense he had a belief in a creator. In my opinion, it was precicely because Jefferson was a freethinker, that he was not blindly devoted to one religion or faith, that enabled him to be a great champion of the freedom of religion.

I believe that Jefferson's firm belief in separation of church and state, and his influence on our laws and policies, is one of the reasons that our country has not experienced a holy war within our own borders. The more we entrench church and state, the more likely we are to find ourselves in holy wars both here and abroad. We are getting dangerously close today, and some would argue we are already there.

BKH

bkhallpass wrote: I am well aware of the context under which the Danbury letter was written. Can you site any facts which support your contention that Jefferson was not religious? I can provide a litany of his writing which suggest he was a deeply religious man. You have a nice father's day, as I will do as well. BKH

I am no Jefferson scholar. From what I understand he had a Unitarian view, not mainstream for his time, and was not interested in pushing his religious views on others, especially when he became president. Hence the separation phrase. Separation does not mean NO religion, it means the state should not sponsor a particular religion over another. That was one of the reasons for starting America. Religious freedom. Not freedom FROM religion! If we do not have a moral compass that binds us together we have anarchy. So much of our founding documents and monuments cite Christianity it is hard to believe the founders did not consider religion a priority. Newt Gingrich wrote a whole book on religion in Washington.

I do not consider Wilkepedia a well respected encyclopedia. But, here is a quick line from Wilkepedia (Thomas Jefferson and religion):


"The religious views of Thomas Jefferson diverged widely from the orthodox Christianity of his day. Throughout his life Jefferson was intensely interested in theology, biblical study, and morality.[1] He is most closely connected with the Episcopal Church, Unitarianism, and the religious philosophy of Deism. As the principal author of the United States Declaration of Independence, he articulated a statement about human rights that most Americans regard as nearly sacred. Together with James Madison, Jefferson carried on a long and successful campaign against state financial support of churches in Virginia.
During his 1800 campaign for the presidency, he had to contend with critics who argued that he was unfit to hold office because he did not have orthodox religious beliefs. It is Jefferson who is credited with propagating the phrase "separation of church and state". He cut and pasted pieces of the New Testament together to compose a version that excluded any miracles by Jesus. Though he often expressed his opposition to clergy and to Christian doctrines, Jefferson repeatedly expressed his belief in God and his admiration for Jesus as a moral teacher. Opposed to Calvinism, Trinitarianism and what he identified as Platonic elements in Christianity, in 1819 he expressed his religious commitment by his proclamation that he belonged to "a sect by myself". [2]

I promise I am done for the day! Dang Blackberry! Enjoy.

ernest

I am well aware of the context under which the Danbury letter was written.

Can you site any facts which support your contention that Jefferson was not religious? I can provide a litany of his writing which suggest he was a deeply religious man.

You have a nice father's day, as I will do as well.

BKH



BKH

Jefferson, known for not being very religious, was more concerned about gvt choosing a religion (like the church of England) than taking religion out of our country. How can restricting religious expression (like you are suggesting) be good for religious freedom? Our country started with the premise that our rights are endowed by our Creator, they DO NOT come from an elected or appointed gvt. Christianity is widespread in the founding fathers vision, to deny that you must rewrite history. Now go practice or dont practice whatever religion you wish. You are entitled to your own opinion just not your own facts. I have read Jefferesons Danbury letter, it must be read knowing why it was written. To protect religious expression.
Done with this for the day; mountain biking this morning, skiing tonight! Thanking God for Fathers day!

rithmetic man wrote: Give your wife a big hug Ernest an welcome her again to the Motherland. It may be interesting to know but I do not believe that the term "...separation of church and state..." is mentioned anywhere in the US Constitution. It comes about as an interpretation of other statements regarding federal government and state government citizen rights to freedom from persecution. It has been transformed into its current catchphrase for self serving idiots.

Thanks, I will!!
I believe the line is "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" . First Amendment. Some how the wackos have perverted it into separation of church and state. And we allow it.

My wife grew up in upstate NY, and when we moved back here to my hometown in SC she got a job in the school district as a speech pathologist. After the shock of finding out that our speech is normal to us, and everyone wasnt in need of therapy; she came home one day and said "You won't believe what we did today! We all held hands and said a prayer before the Christmas party!" She said she was looking around waiting for someone to stop it.

I told her that seperation of church and state BS doesnt get much attention here. We read the constitution here, we don't interpret it. She has loved the South ever since....but I tell her she is still a Yankee!

eric lavine wrote: in our day, it would of went like this: put the hat in your desk, and that would of been the end of it...the teacher probably pressed the issue and waisted tax dollars getting her point out

What bugs me is that nowadays, everything has to be mediatised...

These days I always take a good look around me to see if there aren't any journalists around when I have to fart

in our day, it would of went like this: put the hat in your desk, and that would of been the end of it...the teacher probably pressed the issue and waisted tax dollars getting her point out

   Sad thing is if he was mexican, and that hat had a Mexican flag on it they would not have sent them home because it would have been racist.

   This country is going to hell in a handbasket .....ahhhhh don't get me started.........

   Mike