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Carbed 351 stalling on skier take-off

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backfoot100 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote backfoot100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Carbed 351 stalling on skier take-off
    Posted: May-30-2013 at 11:19am
You know, I was going to say something when I first saw this but I figured I'd let it play out a bit. Seems to be a rash of this lately.

Tom;
Take a look at this and set up your idle mixture, accelerator pump shot and timing as described and you should be fine. I would also move the accelerator pump cam back to the original position too. You've proven that adusting the accelerator pump is helping your problem, so let's get things adjusted the right way and see where we're at.



When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-30-2013 at 9:18am
Tom - Timing advance is a system to allow the spark to happen earlier as the RPM goes up. Since the spark/burn sequence takes a fixed amount of time, it needs to be initiated sooner at high RPM so that the mixture is completely burnt while the piston is still going down.

If you take the distributor cap off, you should be able to see 2 counterweights under the points mounting plate. They are controlled with springs - 1 spring is supposed to be a little loose. Check that these weights are free to move, maybe oil them while you are there.

When was the last time the points & condenser were changed?

When you observe with the timing light, you should see the notch move as the RPM goes up. Put some white paint on the notch, makes it much easier to see with the strobe.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-30-2013 at 6:32am
Originally posted by TomD TomD wrote:

.
Also, what is a WOT figure?

Tom, Sorry. WOT is the "wide open throttle" RPM. It's the figure needed to confirm the prop is correct (if the engine is performing).


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TomD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-30-2013 at 1:33am
Thank you so much for the responses! I'm impressed with how active this forum is. This is very encouraging!

Ok, I'll start by answering questions. (1) The carb is a Holley 6576 which they don't make anymore. If I were to replace the carb today, which I'm not planning on, Holley says the 4160 would fit (2) I'm on my second full tank of gas now so it's pretty fresh. I fully agree that it's difficult to diagnosis anything until you know you have good gas

Ok, so I need to fill you guys in on a major improvement that I'm already experiencing. I followed my gut with the accelerator pump. I noticed that my pump cam was mounted in the #2 position (is this normal/the factory setting?). It's very easy to change so I moved it up to the #1 position (first time to my knowledge this has ever been changed while I've owned the boat). Holley says the #1 position gives the pump shot earlier in the throttle pull. I went for a test run and I was very happily surprised, I'm not stalling off the line anymore! However, I don't feel like the job is done. It still feels like something is wrong. When I bring the throttle up there is still a hesitation and now I am feeling a noticeable jolt when the accelerator pump shot goes in. Is this right? I feel like it used to be a lot smoother.

Ok, since three of you guys mentioned timing, I think it would be a good idea for me to check that. I assume I do this with a timing light gun. I'll see if I can find a youtube video on how to check the timing on a Ford 351. I've never done this before but I'm sure I can figure it out. I don't know what timing advance means...

Also, what is a WOT figure?

I would be happy to update my profile a little more and get a picture up. Just give me a little time. I have a whole list of jobs to do to get our cottage ready for summer;


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lakeview Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-29-2013 at 10:04pm
Change your fuel filter and water separator if you have one,steady stream from the accelerator pump is good but check your float also.I had the same issues last year,and the culprit was those mentioned.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-29-2013 at 8:00am
The 13 x 13 prop should be fine. A WOT figure would be great. If the advance isn't what it should be, the RPM's will suffer as well.

Welcome to CCfan. How about posting some picture. We love them! A diary entry would be great too.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-29-2013 at 12:34am
Originally posted by TomD TomD wrote:



But here is my problem... when I push the throttle down hard for skier start-ups, the engine jolts and then stalls almost every time. If I baby the throttle by pushing down very slowly, which is hard on the skier to be dragged for those few extra seconds, then I can avoid the stall and the engine will accelerate to cruising RPM and run like normal.

Additional things to mention that could be factors... (1) the boat has a new prop which is a 13x13 RH.



I am wondering if it's not too much prop.
Also, you really should not need to push the throttle down hard for a skier to get up. The skier will thank you and so will your engine.

I'm not saying you don't have a stalling issue but what I am getting at is that this may contribute to it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cadunkle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-29-2013 at 12:09am
If you're getting a good strong stream of gas from the accelerator pump discharge nozzles (both sides) immediately when opening throttle (no slop in linkage) then it's most likely timing not advancing. It's common on boats for the advance mechanism to get stuck from old grease hardening and parts rusting. So check initial timing, 10* is a safe initial as SNobsessed mentioned, an d it should advance pretty much immediately off idle... Smoothly as RPM increases.

Total advance should be around 30*-34*, a little more won't hurt but you shouldn't be over 38* total. Ideally you should have all your advance in at typical cruising/skiiing speed... Around 3000-3500 RPM. I'm not sure of the factory advance curve though, so it may in fact be 4000 RPM for all in.

Also, is this the factory Holley 4160 carb? If it was changed to a larger carb or a double pumper it may need tuning to make it right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mnskier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-28-2013 at 11:46pm
My boat had the same issue under load and turned out to be bad gas. Once we drained the tank and ran fresh gas through the system we were good to go.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-28-2013 at 6:14pm
Check your timing advance. Should be 8-10 BTDC at idle & be increasing by 1500 RPM, getting to 28 deg by 4000 RPM.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TomD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-28-2013 at 3:14pm
The boat I'm working on is a 1977 Ski Nautique with a Ford 351w

First off, over the last few years I have made a big mistake by not running ethanol free gas. I have now switched to only using ethanol free and I am treating all my fill-ups with seafoam.

A little more background... this Spring I installed a new fuel pump because the engine would not start and I was able to diagnosis that it had absolutely no fuel pressure. The new pump made the engine start like normal and overall it seems to be running very well. I'm experiencing easy starts, smooth idling, no black residue at the exhaust tips, normal operating temperatures and normal power at cruising RPM.

But here is my problem... when I push the throttle down hard for skier start-ups, the engine jolts and then stalls almost every time. If I baby the throttle by pushing down very slowly, which is hard on the skier to be dragged for those few extra seconds, then I can avoid the stall and the engine will accelerate to cruising RPM and run like normal.

Additional things to mention that could be factors... (1) the boat has a new prop which is a 13x13 RH. I put the prop on two winters ago and I had this same acceleration/stalling issue last summer before I installed the new fuel pump (2) My gut tells me that I now have a bad accelerator pump (possibly from the ethanol), however, I recently looked down the barrel of the carb while my Dad pump the throttle and I can visibly see gas squirting, so the accelerator pump is at least pumping some gas, maybe not enough? (4) the coil, wires and plugs are all new within the last 5 years and have low hours on them (3) lastly, since installing the new fuel pump I have not made any adjustments to the carb, engine or anything else

Does anyone have any thoughts on this issue that might help me avoid calling my boat mechanic? I'm motivated to try fixing this one myself if possible...
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