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TSC1 Nautique Top Speed?

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    Posted: August-15-2014 at 1:23pm
Yeah... you need a little more rpm going up river... a good driver has no problem compensating... trying to find out how to get the wife there..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skutsch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-15-2014 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

I know what you meant but you mis-stated an important distinction... GPS speed is never measured over water (which could by its nature, be moving due to current, etc), but always over land.   Think of it as measuring speed over the river (or lake) bottom.


I concur, minor clarification of my parenthetical statement required.   

It's been so long since I have done in any real engineering, that what I think in my head doesn't always come out the same in written form. HA!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-15-2014 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by skutsch skutsch wrote:

Like Tim says, if you are using a GPS based system (Speed control or speedometer) that device will indicate actual speed over land (or in this case water).

I know what you meant but you mis-stated an important distinction... GPS speed is never measured over water (which could by its nature, be moving due to current, etc), but always over land.   Think of it as measuring speed over the river (or lake) bottom. Rpm and local speed sensors (pitots, paddle wheels, etc) are only capable of controlling speed over the surface of the water.

Without looking at the rule book, I'm fairly certain that tournament scores require accuracy in regards to timing through the course, and does not contain provisions for speed (regardless of how it's measured or how much it varies).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skutsch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-15-2014 at 12:00pm
Like Tim says, if you are using a GPS based system (Speed control or speedometer) that device will indicate actual speed over land (or in this case water). So if it says you are going 35 mph and you are going upstream against the 5 mph current, you are moving at 35 mph relative to a fixed object located on the earth (such as a slalom buoy).

But if you were to also have system that uses the water to approximate speed (such as a paddle wheel or even an airguide) because the water is actually moving, when you head upstream you would have an indicated speed (on the airguide or paddle wheel system ) of 40 mph and down stream speed would indicate 30 mph. None of this changes the fact that relative to that fixed slalom buoy you are still going 35 mph which is what would be indicated on your GPS based speedometer.

Having said all that, I do not know what the official USA Waterski rules are with respect to slalom speeds in a course on a river.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-15-2014 at 11:01am
Seems like people are talking different speed control systems and confusing the issue.

Both stargazer and earlier versions of pp have an rpm mode that you can use if you'd like. If using speed control mode on an earlier version I uses a paddle wheel and it measures speed over water. It's inaccurate above 40 (dads 03 said it ran 49 on pp but GPS said 45-46).   Stargazer uses GPS to set the speed in speed mode, which measures speed over land.

If you are pulling through an anchored slalom course, stargazer speed mode will give you accurate speed through the buoys. If you are free skiing on a river and concerned about speed over water, rpm mode in either system will get you there, as will speed mode in an earlier paddle wheel version.

Zero off for the DBW boats operates the same as pp SG.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scootdogydog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-15-2014 at 9:55am
remember, they work off GPS, so set at 36 will get you to 36...however, for WOT, current will make it go faster, so average them to get an accurate number.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-15-2014 at 3:39am
Kind of like landing an hour early on a 5 hour flight because you get a favorable tail wind.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AAM196 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-15-2014 at 1:27am
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by AAM196 AAM196 wrote:

How does star gazer deal with river currents or do you just have to calculate manually?

Think about this! It will show actual speed on the water! You are not flying an airplane!


Peter.. rivers have currents.. so yes.. it is like flying an airplane in a way. WINK.

If I have the speed set to 36... wouldn't it pull we thru course up river at 39 and down at 33? So I guess what I am asking is for the extra 1k I am spending, does it have a setting that automatically calculates this for me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-14-2014 at 11:39pm
If the river is flowing at 3 mph it will affect your GPS, just run both directions on the river and average your speed with GPS.

As far as heating up while running hard make sure your timing is adjusted properly. A couple degree's too much can easily heat up the heads or if more advanced burn a piston. I know the Chevy blocks don't want more than 36-37 degree's or with Vortec heads more like 28 degree's timing at full throttle above 3,000 rpm. Fords are close to those numbers but I don't know for sure. You can check this with a set back timing light, they have a dial that lets you check the timing at various RPM, timing at idle is not nearly as important as proper timing at 3,000-3,500 RPM.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-14-2014 at 8:50pm
Originally posted by AAM196 AAM196 wrote:

How does star gazer deal with river currents or do you just have to calculate manually?

Think about this! It will show actual speed on the water! You are not flying an airplane!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-14-2014 at 6:49pm
Why do you think he didn't bring his boat this year? Damn campground hasn't removed that log yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IAughtNaut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-14-2014 at 6:05pm
Originally posted by skutsch skutsch wrote:

Originally posted by quinner quinner wrote:

My TSC2 206 has been clocked at over 80mph and that's a fact, ask Paul Gundriver, Joe in NY or Timmy, they can all verify!!


That was going backwards too. Would have been faster cept for that pesky log...
I'm not sure you can call it a log if the roots are still in the ground and leaves are growing on the branches.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skutsch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-14-2014 at 6:02pm
Originally posted by quinner quinner wrote:

My TSC2 206 has been clocked at over 80mph and that's a fact, ask Paul Gundriver, Joe in NY or Timmy, they can all verify!!


That was going backwards too. Would have been faster cept for that pesky log...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote quinner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-14-2014 at 6:00pm
My TSC2 206 has been clocked at over 80mph and that's a fact, ask Paul Gundriver, Joe in NY or Timmy, they can all verify!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AAM196 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-14-2014 at 4:11pm
How does star gazer deal with river currents or do you just have to calculate manually?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M3Fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-13-2014 at 5:37pm
Originally posted by AAM196 AAM196 wrote:



So I wonder if replacing the paddle wheel would help increase the accuracy.

At 36 mph everything just sounds and feels right on that boat!


At higher speeds the paddle wheel is really just informational which is why it wasn't used as a speed input for anything under wakeboard speeds in the pre-SG PP versions. Upgrade to SG?

At 36 everything feels right because that's exactly what the boat was designed to do primarily. Pull tournament skiers through the course at 36mph/58kph straight and true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AAM196 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-13-2014 at 3:15pm
Ok... just out on lake tinkering with perfect pass etc... and decided to calibrate to gps and I found everything dead on at 34.2 mph and 36 mph but I found the paddle wheel was lying to me wot and showing 47.2 yet the fastest I read on gps was toggling between 45 and 46. again I am at 2461ft above sea level if that matters. Crazy that the airguide was more accurate.

So I wonder if replacing the paddle wheel would help increase the accuracy.

At 36 mph everything just sounds and feels right on that boat!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skutsch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-13-2014 at 1:36pm
Originally posted by JoeinNY JoeinNY wrote:

apparently the valves and the pistons aren’t supposed to be in the same place at the same time.   


I hate that when that happens...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-13-2014 at 1:25pm
I don’t know that I would agree that it is completely irrelevant. While under most cases where my temp creeps up under high speed runs I find that it is due to a slight deficiency in my cooling system (IE my hi-tech strainer/transmission cooler has some weeds in it) the tune of the engine at wot can significantly effect the heat load of the engine and the ability of the cooling system to react to it.   IMHO/limited experience the GT40 engines run relatively lean on the top end compared to the big ol calibrated leaks Trbenj or myself are currently running and that can greatly increase cylinder head temp and show up on the temp gauge.   Either way if it gets hot(hotter) at speed you might want to find out why or not run it like that.   Check strainer, for belt slippage at high speed, leaks, then impeller, if those are good change the thermostat out/check for other system blockages. Still having an issue check the timing and do some plug chops. If all that is perfect and you still have some high speed high temp issues then look at the circulating pump, I have seen the vanes on cheapo replacements rust off to nothing, and have seen the expensive bronze bidirectional ones where the impeller spun on the shaft internal to the pump.   Both of those I only found after I caused massive internal damage to the engine but running it hot wide open – apparently the valves and the pistons aren’t supposed to be in the same place at the same time.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Toertel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-13-2014 at 1:08pm
JPASS good to know I'm not alone.
Mine stays well below 180 even when I rev it past 4500
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JPASS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-13-2014 at 1:04pm
My temps fluctuate a bit, but not more than 10-15 degrees.......although its hard to tell with the new temp gauge I recently installed. As long as it never hits 180, I'm not worried.

The graduations make it difficult to get an accurate reading.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Toertel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-13-2014 at 12:56pm
I'll check again this weekend and maybe post vid on youtube.
This only happens when I run over 4500 after a longer run at 4000 ish and drops right away once I'm back at 4200 ish. When I run it at 4200, even for extended times, it doesn't change the temp vs idle or ski load.
Anyway, once I get the 422 on it, I'll let ya'll know what it did to the speed at comparable rpms
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AAM196 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-13-2014 at 12:48pm
I never took a look to see what thermostat my boat has but I'd suspect HW is right...

Seb, mine idles at 160F but running wot for a few mins mine dips even cooler maybe 158ish. I'd check your water pump and hoses... make sure it is sealed up well and you have the right impeller in.

As far as running wide open of course pulling out I roll throttle down to the floor then I back to the desired speed. for me footing is typically around 3800-3900 rpm right around 40..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-13-2014 at 11:46am
Originally posted by Hollywood Hollywood wrote:

Tim is misleading you a bit. He doesn't have a GT40, let alone an EFI Ford...

Irrelevant for the purposes of this conversation, as the bottom end and cooling system are the same, and the top end is close enough to make an apples to apples comparison. At least in terms of cooling ability and how safe it is to spin higher than the "recommended" rpm.

True story on the 143 vs 160 stats but that shouldn't change anything other than where the temp is regulated- the behavior of the temp under load should not change.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Toertel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-13-2014 at 11:44am
Originally posted by Hollywood Hollywood wrote:

Tim is misleading you a bit.

Thx Hollywood. But I did listen to him anyway and ordered a 422 prop, hoping that Nautiquehunter can borrow me a prop puller
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-13-2014 at 11:39am
Tim is misleading you a bit. He doesn't have a GT40, let alone an EFI Ford...

Also, some of you GT40 owners could be running 160 thermostats. However, if your engine normally holds 160 you probably have the 143 thermostat.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-13-2014 at 11:36am
No plate but I'd ignore it if it did... I tear off the tag on my mattress too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Toertel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-13-2014 at 11:18am
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

5200 here, 80 degree water and it doesn't creep up.

I'll check hoses etc again and keep an eye on it.
Anyway doesn't your engine have a plate on it that says the same re rpm as mine on the black plastic cover next to the GT-40 sign? I haven't even tried to run above 4800 so no input from my end re top speed once over these rpms
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-13-2014 at 11:07am
5200 here, 80 degree water and it doesn't creep up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Toertel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-13-2014 at 11:01am
The rwp is less than a year old, new impeller and hose tight.
We run it on lake lanier which is right now around 86.
And I can only see it after we run pedal to the metal/run it hard (temp then is little over 160), once rpms below 4200 will drop it again immediately
On the engine it says WOT rpm continuous should be 4200 and max/peak 4800.
Speed at 4200 is 40ish with the FAE. Ya'll rev it much higher? Should I just disregard the engine plate ?
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