Overheated 351W. What to check? |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3735 |
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Posted: August-17-2016 at 1:36pm |
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Nice work and congratulations.
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hal2814
Groupie Joined: June-20-2016 Location: Bedford, TX Status: Offline Points: 76 |
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I never gave an update and I hate it when people do that so here it is:
The new starter works fine. There was an external water leak coming from the riser and leaking onto the exhaust manifold. I replaced the riser and exhaust manifold gakets but due to the water leak those two bolts where the water was leaking were a bear to take off. I took the boat to a car mechanic to get those them off. With the manifolds off I also noticed a small oil leak coming from the valve cover gasket so I replaced that, too. I put everything back together and the engine ran rough. I think the shop torched those bolts to get the manifold off and left the spark plugs on because one of the plugs was failing intermittently. I replaced the offending plug and the boat runs like a champ now. Thanks everyone for the help! I did just notice a small transmission fluid leak but I'm not sure if that could be caused by an overheat. I'll look further into that. I'm not even sure where it's coming from yet. I just noticed maybe a teaspoon of tranny fluid in the bilge when I prepped the boat to go out last. Fluid level was still fine. Unless someone thinks that could be related to an overheat I'll start a new thread on it when I have more info. |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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If you look at the non-mobile version of that same skidim page, it tells you. 5/16th.
http://www.skidim.com/50L_58L-302_351-FORD/products/1158/ It's worth getting a professional grade allen socket for something like that as well: https://store.snapon.com/Hex-Long-inches-chrome-3-8-quot--Socket-Driver-Hex-Extra-Long-5-16--P631900.aspx |
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hal2814
Groupie Joined: June-20-2016 Location: Bedford, TX Status: Offline Points: 76 |
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Thanks for the tip on the riser gasket. I've seen that it's not symmetrical and has that tab. I'll make sure to install it in the proper direction.
I have the starter now and plan to replace it today. I don't remember the exact numbers on voltage and resistance. I'm friends with a professional mechanic who helped me do those tests. I trust his judgement on that. Gaskets should be in tomorrow. Does anyone know the size of the hex bit I need for the exhaust manifolds? |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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[QUOTE=hal2814] Voltage looks good to the starter. Resistance on the relay looks good. QUOTE]
What was the voltage to the starter during cranking? How much drop from the battery to the starter? What was the resistance across the relay contacts? It should be very close to zero.. |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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The only other thing to be aware of is the orientation of the riser gasket. It's designed to block the passage towards the exhaust outlet.
Refer to skidim's page: http://www.skidim.com/50L_58L-302_351-FORD/products/1158/ |
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tryathlete
Platinum Member Joined: April-19-2013 Location: Lake Villa, IL Status: Offline Points: 1797 |
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Exhaust gaskets are assembled dry but if you wish you can use a little bit of Permatex spray adhesive to hold them in place so they don't run away during assembly. Sounds like your starter solenoid is flaking out and not moving freely to engage the flywheel. New starter will fix that. Hope all goes smoothly even though for me it rarely does!
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hal2814
Groupie Joined: June-20-2016 Location: Bedford, TX Status: Offline Points: 76 |
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Yes, a starting battery is what I bought. I forget the exact specs but it's in line with what's recommended in the PCM manual and not too far off from the 5 year old battery that was in the boat before.
I set the timing back to 6 and it didn't matter. It worked fine all morning but when the engine (and afternoon) got hot the starter acted up again. I don't think it's turning the flywheel. It sounds like the starter is spinning but not engaging. Voltage looks good to the starter. Resistance on the relay looks good. It's only intermittent right now. It acts up once or twice then cranks fine. I found a reasonably priced starter and am going to go with that. I did also notice an drip from one of the exhaust manifold gaskets so I'll be replacing both of those Fortunately, I'm not seeing water in the oil so I assume it's just an external leak. I'm also doing the riser gaskets while I'm at it. I'm not 100% sure that's a result of the overheat but I'll chalk it up to that. Do I need to RTV the gaskets or prep them in any way other than cleaning the mating surfaces? |
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tryathlete
Platinum Member Joined: April-19-2013 Location: Lake Villa, IL Status: Offline Points: 1797 |
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If you want to eliminate timing advance as an issue, pull the coil lead and crank it. If no change, not the timing advance. Old muscle car trick for starting cars with high compression and lots of initial advance was to toss a coil interrupt switch while cranking for quick starts.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Eric,
Keep checking the volts before jumping at the starter. On the start relay (solenoid), get an Ohm reading across the contacts to see if they are burnt. Regarding that new battery, hopefully you got a starting and not a deep cycle. |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3735 |
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If your timing is advanced a little too much it can certainly cause hard start conditions.
See it more on Chevy engines than Ford for some reason but timing can certainly cause hard starts. |
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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Timing shouldn't impede the starter turning over. I too had hard hot starting at 10 BTDC, but it turned over OK, just acted flooded.
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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hal2814
Groupie Joined: June-20-2016 Location: Bedford, TX Status: Offline Points: 76 |
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Timing was checked before I launched last. I've been touchy about that since I just replaced my distributor. I'm running 10BTDC which is what the PCM service manual recommends. It says 6 on the valve cover though so I may try that.
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Advanced timing can cause the above trouble too. When was it checked last? |
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hal2814
Groupie Joined: June-20-2016 Location: Bedford, TX Status: Offline Points: 76 |
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The battery is only about a month old. I checked that and the alternator when I put my new distributor on a few weeks ago since I had my multimeter out anyway but I'll check them again. I'll also check the electrical connections and make sure the solenoid is functioning properly and the proper voltage is making it to the starter. But my experience on the automotive side tells me that if it's only having problems when the engine is warmed up (especially on 100f+ days) it's probably the starter. I may look into doing the brushes if I can confirm it is the starter.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Or, if after testing that the starter is getting the volts, open it up yourself, clean up the commutator and install a new set of brushes |
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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Starter might just need brushes. An auto electrical shop can do that for less than a new starter.
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Eric, No on the new starter until you do some testing. Check you battery cables and their terminals. What condition is the battery in? Get it tested if unknown. Use a starting battery and not a deep cycle. Don't just start throwing parts are a problem. As far as the starter getting wet, think about how wet an automotive gets every time you drive in the rain and through puddles!!! |
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hal2814
Groupie Joined: June-20-2016 Location: Bedford, TX Status: Offline Points: 76 |
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I put it in the water and the engine ran great! Thanks everyone! Now the starter is occasionally clicking when hot instead of turning over. It probably got wet. I took on quite a bit of water. I guess I;ll be replacing that next. Still cheaper than an engine.
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3735 |
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A little dish soap works really well to ease the installation process and dish soap will not cause any rubber rot to haunt you later. Glad you got it back together, keep us posted on your results.
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hal2814
Groupie Joined: June-20-2016 Location: Bedford, TX Status: Offline Points: 76 |
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I replaced the hoses and melted muffler yesterday. After reading your replies I went ahead and replaced both sides just to be safe. The hose wasn't as hard to take off as I thought it would be but I was using a box cutter and wire cutters. I thought I might need some lubricant to get the hoses back on but I was able to work them on with a little elbow grease. I'll do a water test today and go from there. Thanks for everyone's input.
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3735 |
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Hollywood is dead on, the melted hose chokes your exhaust and shuts down your engine by cutting off exhaust flow. I have not seen one kill the engine completely but both times I witnessed the hose collapse the engine started running terrible about the time we figured out we had lost water flow and burned up the exhaust tubes.
In the two cases I was present for both engines had zero overheat damage, the tubes shut us down before damage was done to the engine. The Marine hose is expensive but a new engine would have cost far more so they are worth every penny in addition to being required by law and safer. |
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13513 |
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yes |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3735 |
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The Rubber exhaust hose that connects to your exhaust manifold is designed to help shut down your engine if you run dry with no water in the exhaust. The inner tube is supposed to collapse and shut off your exhaust making the engine choke itself and give you a warning that something is very wrong prior to you burning a hole through the exhaust tube.
Normally if one goes dry they both go dry and you will need to replace both. They are expensive but serve a purpose so stay with Marine exhaust hose for replacement. If one of yours is still good and the inner tube is intact it must have had some cooling on that side while the other melted. |
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hal2814
Groupie Joined: June-20-2016 Location: Bedford, TX Status: Offline Points: 76 |
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Thanks! Just to be clear I pulled the mufflers out on both sides and checked the exhaust hoses internally. No internal collapse on the port side. The walls were still smooth inside. The starboard muffler was externally deformed and the hose from the riser to the muffler was a mess internally. The muffler and replacement riser-to-muffler hose is on the way. From the muffler to the exhaust flaps was still smooth inside on the starboard side.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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As Chris mentioned, the damage would be internal. The typical failure from an overheat is the inner ply of rubber delaminates and collapses. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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The damage as Chris mentioned, would be internal. The typical failure from an overheat is the inner ply of rubber delaminates. |
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hal2814
Groupie Joined: June-20-2016 Location: Bedford, TX Status: Offline Points: 76 |
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I've inspected the exhaust hoses. The port side looks fine. The starboard looks fine after the muffler but everything from the muffler to the riser is toast. New parts are on the way for that. Would a melted hose be enough for it to bog like it did under load? Exhaust and water were coming out. They just happened to be coming out in the boat.
A friend of mine is helping me do a leakdown either tonight or towmorrow. If that looks good I plan to do a water test to see if it runs properly. Is there anything else I should do before putting it back in the water? |
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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Sounds like one or both of your exhaust hoses melted internally. They are supposed to do that in an overheat situation. Take one in off & look inside.
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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hal2814
Groupie Joined: June-20-2016 Location: Bedford, TX Status: Offline Points: 76 |
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The raw water intake hose on my 1983 Ski Nautique (351W engine) came disconnected and I overheated the engine pretty badly. I didn't notice until the temp gauge was pegged and there was a burning smell. I also saw some white smoke coming from the doghouse and exhaust initially.
After letting it cool down and inspecting the impeller (which somehow was fine), the engine revs fine out of gear but in gear it's really rough and dies around 3000RPM, I was able to idle back to the boat ramp. There doesn't appear to be any water in the oil and the crankcase level hasn't changed at all from before I left for the day. At home I hooked it up to some water and it seems to run ok without any smoke but it is harder to start than it was before. I also noticed some water spraying inside the boat and discovered it apparently got hot enough to partially deform one of the plastic mufflers. I did a compression test after warming the engine and got the following (in 1-8 cylinder order): 130, 130, 120, 130, 135, 135, 130, 140. Still no evidence of water in the oil. I'm kind of stumped on where to go from here. Are those numbers bad? 3 looks low and 8 looks high but I don't know if they're far enough apart to worry about. What else do I need to do to pinpoint the issue? Is there possibly a transmission issue? Any help would be appreciated. |
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