Shaft General Propeller versus ARE

Hollywood wrote: I don’t think that’s vernier...

I stand corrected:    No vernier. Still never used one in my trade.
Economy Slide Ruler Calipers
caliper

Duane, that is an inexpensive measuring devise that I bought from McMaster Carr. I also bought a bolt hole measuring devise to help keep us out of trouble. I've never used a set before, so I wouldn't know what the norm is.

We ended up buying an ARE shaft as they had the correct size on the shelf as well as they have 5" couplings in 1" diameter. He offered us a great deal on the shaft as it was a custom length. Cecil was confident that with the 1:1 trans the application would be fine. If not, we're not out a lot of money.

GP only has 5" couplings in 1" shaft sizes in a single taper. To get a tapered shaft, they have to order a custom flange for upwards of $500.

If our shaft fails, we will have to go the single taper GP route.

For historical records the coupling that General Propeller uses has a 1.775 inch long taper (42% improvement over the 1.25 new ARE) that is no smaller than.885 at the bottom of the key slot at the small end of the tapered portion.

TRBenj wrote: Well that gets the old shaft off... how do you get the new one in?

The cut down socket worked for the GP longer coupling without a problem so, considering the redesigned ARE is the same length, it should work too. Next time we meet or you see Joe, we'll show you how to shorten a socket.

JoeinNY wrote: There are tradeoffs in tapers as in life, the origInal ARE design was short so you could get a removal tool and socket in there so it could be separated without pulling the engine.   It was tight enough in my boat it took a cut down socket. The one I have on now from gp is likely not coming off with the engine in place. That is minor for me but certainly not for all.

Joe,
I just noticed your comment regarding pulling the engine. You cane still use the spacer and long bolt trick to pop the shaft off the taper.

This is what I've learned:
Both companies use the 17 material for their shafts. ARE recommends the 22 for an extreme use as it is a stronger material. GP insists that it is not a stronger material and is only needed for salt water use.

ARE has 5" flanges for 1" shafts available. GP has to have them custom made. I'm waiting on a price for that.

ARE's taper is now at about half the angle that it used to be and uses a flat key rather than a woodruff key.

The ARE flange is approximately 2.5" long. The GP is 2.625" long,

When you call ARE, you speak with the owner, GP a salesman.

My question was about how the two brands compare. I'll call ARE and discuss the coupler on Monday. It would stand to reason that if they re designed their coupler they put an improved taper on it. They may have more experience in special applications as they are a small shop and not a large producer for the marine industry like GP is.

I received info from ARE. The 17-4 is the standard metal. The AQ22 is what he sells to drag boat racers. Price for the AQ77 is similar as you noted, Joe. They have 5" flanges in stock. He said he re designed the taper a few years ago, but didn't give me specifics other than to say it is to borg warner specs with a height of 2.13".

GP lists AQ22. If that's what they quoted for a ski boat shaft their prices are really good. Their wait on the flange is not so good.

I saw an add once for a Ski Nautique for sale in England powered by a GM Duramax Diesel so it has been done. That would be a beast of an engine in a boat. But Heavy.
350 HP and 850 ft lbs would move a Nautique even with 10 barefooters in tow.

It takes a pretty strong engine on gas to hit 600 ft-lbs.
Are we talking supercharger or turbo?

Hollywood wrote: It would probably be helpful if Bruce explained the application vs Tim using inside knowledge over Ken.

Yeah, no fair

I thought this was a mildly modified 454 powered Atom Skier he was working on

Joe, thanks for the assist, I had printed 1 1/4 and realized later it is 1 1/8" shafts that were used on the larger heavier boats, I think Mastercraft used them in the Ski boats also?
( I will go back and correct that )

600 ft lb of torque? are you running a diesel?

Riley wrote: Joe, do I understand you correctly that the GP shaft is a higher strength than the ARE?

I do not know what GP is using for a "standard" 1" shaft or what it costs, I asked specifically for them to quote an AQ 22 shaft for me cause that was the best available and I have an issue with shafts.

Based on my now 4-5 year old experience with elberts is the ARE shaft you get if you do not specify material for $400 was "17 Series", material it cost me $620 for them to make me one out of "22 Series" material. To the best of my recollection off the top of my head in the 1" size AQ 22 is approx 20%-25% stronger than AQ 17.   

Aquamet 17 material properties

Aquamet 22 material properties

They've offered a single taper and a split taper, but if we're buying new, would rather get a double taper. Is there any strength differences between the different types of fit?

I'm waiting to hear from ARE on their availability and the dimensions of their supposed new taper. We're hoping to do all this once, so we'd like to do it the best way.

I spoke with Vince at SkiDim last year and he mentioned that ARE recommended a flexible coupler for their shafts, and as I understood him, not due to a problem with the ARE, but people's difficulty in providing a good alignment. I'll see what ARE says about their couplings and just how much they've changed their tapers, which I will post.

Joe, do I understand you correctly that the GP shaft is a higher strength than the ARE?

Ken, engine is modified with more hp than stock and boat may at times be lugging 5 or 6 heavy weights pulling a barefooter.

Agreed, it doesn't matter on a stock boat and not even so much on most anything without a gear reduction transmission.   

The shaft material strength comparisons can be a little confusing because at certain Diameters larger than we deal with the strength of an AQ 17 might be greater than or equal to an AQ 22 - but that is not the case at 1 inch.   There is also AQ 22HS (high strengh) but again only in larger diameters.   

My experience with elberts ARE is that they are using a "17 series" material for their "stock" 1 inch system that was (maybe is) around 400 bucks. I had them make me a "22 series" shaft once and that cost me $630 - it is leaning against a wall broken along with a couple of the "17 series" ones and I certainly can't tell any difference between them at this point other than the size of the hole left in my wallet.    Their advice was to use a flexible coupling and not waste the money on a 22 series shaft... mighta been pretty good advice. Whether it would have helped with any dynamic misalignment issues or simply allowed me to avoid the short taper, big key caused breaks they all suffered with...   Might be a way to get shaft in under 8 weeks if such things are on the shell somewhere...

The next shaft I bought was from General and at the time they quoted an AQ22 shaft with a single taper for 366 or a double taper for 419. (4 inch coupling) Which seemed to be a pretty good deal considering the 620 for the last A.R.E I bought.   I am still running the GP shaft, so far with no issues but I haven't pulled on anything hard enough to bend the pylon lately either.

I would be interested in a seeing a latest and greatest ARE shaft at some point and see how it changed, so be sure to post a picture or two before you put it in.

TRBenj wrote: Ask Joe. Doesn’t matter on a stock boat

Sounds good to me

I've used both and not had a problem with either. ARE was on a 454 with the 5 inch coupling for a 10-18/72C

Eight weeks wait vs probably about 5 days from Oregon, I know what I'd do