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Engine Modernization

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JoeinNY View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Engine Modernization
    Posted: January-14-2020 at 12:56pm
Originally posted by 66_Cuda 66_Cuda wrote:



To do it right you will have some plumbing to do with small fittings for the oil pressure along with wiring for the pump & the changes to the fuel lines.

There is elegance in simplicity, and that "old style" mechanical pump begins to look better when you consider the alternative system.



Absolutely right, and for the trouble you end up with an electric pump that is likely louder and won't last as long as the mechanical pump. There are very few cases where an electric pump will be an upgrade or modernization on a carb boat.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 66_Cuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-14-2020 at 10:47am
With an older boat check that the fuel pump is a marine unit. Former owners might have replaced it with the much less expensive automotive mechanical fuel pump. When the diaphragm begins to leak (they all do eventually), the fuel drips will not fall on the ground like they would on a car, the fuel will go into your bilge. The result is often not pretty.

If you switch to an electric fuel pump, regs require that it stop pumping when the engine stops. Naturally the mechanical pump stops when the engine is not turning. For the electric fuel pump the solution is often to use a reverse acting oil pressure switch, which permits pump running only when the oil pressure is up. The common variety of oil pressure switch turns on an idiot light when the pressure falls.

To do it right you will have some plumbing to do with small fittings for the oil pressure along with wiring for the pump & the changes to the fuel lines.

There is elegance in simplicity, and that "old style" mechanical pump begins to look better when you consider the alternative system.

Love the look of that boat, thanks for putting the link to your pictures. Hope you have a great time with it.

Jack
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 67 ski nat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-07-2020 at 11:41am
It is really excellent to hear ALL the advise , input and points of view. I have learned a Ton and site often changes my mind. That’s why we come here
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2020 at 10:27pm
And I thought he was going to LS it
"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2020 at 10:14pm
Well Greg

Glad to see you survived one more points discussion on CCF and didn't run away

Since you're new to boats and you have a 55 year old boat, quite a bit may have changed on it over the years, so if you're thinking of "modernizing" things it would be good to figure out what you have for a distributor, carburetor, fuel pump, and alternator since they may have been changed over the years or could maybe use some modernizing.

Pictures would be good if you have problems determining what you have.

I doubt you'll be troubleshooting till spring so you'll have plenty of time to read about fuel systems and distributors etc by searching here on CCF
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2020 at 9:50pm
Originally posted by Duane in Indy Duane in Indy wrote:


Has any one switched their cars from factory EI back to points?? Wondering why??


Yes I have. It’s been a long time though. When the ignition system was designed all the electronics were in the distributor. As it went through it’s heat cycles it started breaking down. As you’d drive it would just shut off and as time went on it would take longer to restart. The key to tell if it was the ignition and not something else was as it shut down to look at the tach- if it was dead it was your EI. The manufacturer’ fix was a new distributor and move the internals to the firewall. I put a points distributor from an earlier car I had just to make it useable and later put in a full centrifugal point distributor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GregD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2020 at 8:03pm
Thanks everyone! I think I've settled on electronic ignition as part of full ignition tune up, but staying with the mechanical fuel pump. Too many potential issues with running pump without running engine, I'll check flow form tank to pump as suggested then work way up toward carb. Appreciate EVERYONE'S input.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 67 ski nat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2020 at 6:20pm
GregD. There is a pertronix electronic module only that may fit inside your existing oem distributor shaft and case. However the full billet distributor unit and black cap look stock
What ever you do, do not ask about or use a orange Fram filter. The forum site will crash
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2020 at 5:31pm
In my boats that had points there always seemed to be a time when the key would get left in the run position with the engine not running and frost the points. Each time I had to file the points or replace them to get it running again.   Not that it happened that often but it did happen a few times for a variety of reasons. I switched to the GM HEI distributor and it never happened again plus it had better cold start manners. Lasted 20 years till I sold it.
I know there are Ford Distributors available that use the same GM HEI set up.
You might have to modify to make them safe in Marine use. Points work fine but I see the benefit to the HEI set up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2020 at 3:47pm
Originally posted by Duane in Indy Duane in Indy wrote:

Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Unless you carry a spare EI module on board, you may need to get the paddle out.


Is that what you do with your conversion??

The 302 in the Tique is an EI. Thankfully no problems yet but carrying a spare module has crossed my mind.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2020 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by Duane in Indy Duane in Indy wrote:


It has been my experience that you will replace/clean 100 sets of points to 1 module. Kinda think that is why OEM now all have EI installed at factory. Points have a given life span. Not arguing , just the facts.

Duane,
Excellent point on the life span of a point set. Yes, I've had to put a new set on the Y block since I purchased it 41 years ago. Regarding cleaning, I've never had too even after layups.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2020 at 3:00pm
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Unless you carry a spare EI module on board, you may need to get the paddle out.


Is that what you do with your conversion??
It has been my experience that you will replace/clean 100 sets of points to 1 module. Kinda think that is why OEM now all have EI installed at factory. Points have a given life span. Not arguing , just the facts.
Has any one switched their cars from factory EI back to points?? Wondering why??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2020 at 12:49pm
Originally posted by 67 ski nat 67 ski nat wrote:

In an old car of same age I would probably keep points, but I wanted to be more reliable on water and eliminate possible distributor issues

The EI conversions have had reliability issues but they have become more reliable.
This approach is sound since it will get you back to shore.
Originally posted by 67 ski nat 67 ski nat wrote:

sticking with oem distributor and points, keep spare set points in boat with very fine sandpaper to clean. Legitimate approach for vintage boat

Unless you carry a spare EI module on board, you may need to get the paddle out.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 67 ski nat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2020 at 11:38am
Cool boat. Nice score. Over time you should systematically go thru everything to make sure ALL is cleaned out and function properly (fuel tank, carb clean). Start with easy cheaper stuff (plugs, wires, check alternator) and process eliminates will keep you going and running better more reliable on water
In an old car of same age I would probably keep points, but I wanted to be more reliable on water and eliminate possible distributor issues
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2020 at 11:32am
Originally posted by GregD GregD wrote:

. Carpet has been replaced too with a more modern boat carpet.

In 65, it didn't come with carpet.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-05-2020 at 9:10pm
Try this,   btw nice boat

skier
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GregD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-05-2020 at 2:01pm
Thanks! There certainly is a place in antique carts and boats for purity to original. This boat is not that. It's had a throttle and shifter replaced with a modern one before me. Carpet has been replaced too with a more modern boat carpet. I'll keep color scheme (just polishing and waxing) and all exterior goodies original. For the engine, I am looking solely at reliability and low maintenance. Like when I buy a used car, this boat will et full tune up and change out all fluids. Can't wait to get it out on the water. Will post pics along the way via my Flikr account links.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 67 ski nat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-05-2020 at 12:17pm
The originalist on this forum like sticking with oem distributor and points, keep spare set points in boat with very fine sandpaper to clean. Legitimate approach for vintage boat
However my oem prestolite was rusty and worn so I had it rebuilt, I’m keeping as backup or nostalgia
I did upgrade to a ‘marine’ Pertronix electronic billet distributor, seems to run great, spark is probably more accurate
But listen to all feedback and formulate your own decisions
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GregD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-05-2020 at 11:29am
For what it's worth, I am not worried about the mechanical fuel pump, other than age and ethanol, as much as the points and condenser. I've owned plenty of old cars and the biggest pain in the butt to keeping them running right always seemed to making sure the points were clean, and the dwell was set properly. That said, I've never owned a boat before and was hoping for some insights into electronic ignition in these old boats and if using an electric fuel pump was beneficial at all. I prefer to fix it and forget it whenever possible.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GregD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-05-2020 at 11:20am
Here is a pic right after buying it and getting it to my father in law's pole barn.

https://flic.kr/p/2ias93K
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GregD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-05-2020 at 11:17am
Thanks! Will do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-05-2020 at 9:49am
Greg,
I suggest locating the problem before "modernizing". There are 10's of thousands of engines out there running great for many years with mechanical fuel pumps and original ignition systems. If you suspect a fuel pressure problem, "T" a mechanical pressure gauge into the line between the pump and carb. The 289 is a fantastic reliable engine.

How about posting some pictures of the new to you Skier?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-04-2020 at 11:59pm
You might want to check the fuel flow from gas tank. there are several ways it can get clogged, like pickup screen, anti-siphon valve, old fuel hose, water separator. Some guys hook up a small tank, direct to fuel pump, as a test to rule that other stuff out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GregD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-04-2020 at 11:02pm
So, as I get ready to start cosmetic and mechanical work on the 1965 American Skier, considering some engine "upgrades". It has the 190HP 289 V8 (going to confirm with the engine ID). Thoughts on replacing points with electronic ignition and higher voltage coil? Also wondering if changing the mechanical fuel ump to a low pressure (4-6psi) electronic pump should be a consideration. Engine compression is good on all 8 cylinders. So rings and valves should be good. Prior owner said it was losing power at high RPM and had to be throttle back down to catch up. So, planning full electrical tune up (including coil, cap/rotor, wires, and plugs). Figured I'd deal with original fuel pump as well as checking out and cleaning the carb. Other thoughts appreciated also.
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