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Help Identifying Cause of Low Fuel Pressure

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MrMcD View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Help Identifying Cause of Low Fuel Pressure
    Posted: July-04-2021 at 6:25pm
Nice work chasing the problem down. Glad you finally got to feel the power!  Your going downhill now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-04-2021 at 5:47pm
It's probably worth mentioning that the breaker supplies the fuel pump relay too along with the fuel pumps if you're looking for possible "culprits".

It sounds like you have new relays, but ya never know Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-04-2021 at 5:14pm
Originally posted by dshack dshack wrote:



Only issue I had was the 15a fuel pump breaker tripped a few times. I would normally suspect a fuel pump going bad, but both are brand new. I think it is a bad breaker because it took a couple minutes to be able to reset it even with the ground pulled from the battery (it would immediately pop out after I pushed it in).

David,
I'd say the breaker needed to cool to reset it.

Regarding the potential overload, you may what to test to see if the breaker is bad or just doing it's job.




You sure made great progress. Clap Clap


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-04-2021 at 5:07pm
Don't know if you're one of those Amazon types, but here's a link and it tells what the breakers are called if you want to shop around Wink


Not a lot of price difference wherever you look, shipping is a different story though.

Maybe with all the work on the boat, you have a chafed wire, but putting a new breaker in will tell you a lot, like whether the breaker is bad or you have another problem.

And............good job, you work fast

It's never good when pieces parts fall out of the distributor
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dshack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-04-2021 at 4:05pm
I replaced the distributor and the engine sounded great in my driveway so I went out for a lake test with my 2.5 year old (her first time in a boat!). I will never forget the feeling of that first hole shot and the smile on my daughters face afterwards!! The boat ran great, cruised in the low 40s per my GPS watch with an unknown prop. Tons of low end power. Finally sounds like a boat should sound!

Only issue I had was the 15a fuel pump breaker tripped a few times. I would normally suspect a fuel pump going bad, but both are brand new. I think it is a bad breaker because it took a couple minutes to be able to reset it even with the ground pulled from the battery (it would immediately pop out after I pushed it in). Any idea on generic part numbers for the breaker at a parts store? Or is this something I'll need to order from nautiqueparts?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-04-2021 at 11:14am
For a replacement, Spectra FD-14 has been  a good CCF choice over the years.

It has the cast iron gear and you can use your new cap or fill the vent hole with silicone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dshack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-04-2021 at 10:47am
Just pulled the distributor and turned it upside down and a little plastic chunk and spade connector fell out. Hopefully this is the smoking gun.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-04-2021 at 9:50am
Seems lately that the most common fix to GT40 running problems is the PIP sensor. I have had the crank shaft position sensor,which is basically the same thing go out on every Jeep I have owned...... 
Make sure you order the correct one (cast gear) for a flat tappet engine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dshack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-04-2021 at 9:06am
^ Duly noted!! My dogs are safe for now haha.

I might be onto something now, I started having an intermittent no start normal crank after running the engine for a bit. When it did it last night I checked and I'm not getting any spark. I pulled a code 14 for the PIP sensor. Going to just replace the whole distributor and see if that does anything. Hopefully this is all related to the core issue of lack of power and not just another thing to distract me!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-04-2021 at 1:01am
Originally posted by JayG80 JayG80 wrote:

Removing the muffler would be down on my list after “exhausting” all options and shooting my dog.



Umm.............I do like your answer, but you left out some important info............what kind of dog is it? Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JayG80 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-03-2021 at 9:51pm
Removing the muffler would be down on my list after “exhausting” all options and shooting my dog.

Preliminarily, remove the stern floorboard and inspect the muffler as boat runs. Pay attention to sounds and watch muffler while accelerating  engine. My muffler sounded “funny” and pillowed up.

I’m no expert, just a shade tree mechanic suggesting a remote cause based on my case/solution.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-03-2021 at 4:12pm
My buddy is a pretty fair mechanic, he brought his boat over to find out why it is so rich at idle and had no power above 2,800 RPM.   His is a Chevy 350 but he had two wire switched in the fire order.   He paid a shop to look at it and they claimed his coil wire was loose and they tightened that and told him it was fixed.   His Chevy fire order is 18436572, he had wires 3 and 6 switched.  The two were close enough that it ran but ran badly one of his plugs was fouled black but the other actually looked pretty good after running wired wrong.
This was after he installed a new Carb and a new distributor trying to fix his issue.
With two of us we could trace the wires really quickly and found the issue in 5 minutes.  It can happen.

Another possibility, the 351W and the early 302 do not use the same fire order so make sure you have the correct firing order for your specific 351W which is the same as the later 302 HO engines.
The distributor will rotate Counter Clockwise and the order should be 1 3 7 2 6 5 4 8   Sometimes the simple things get us hung up on a repair.  Cylinders 1234 are on the Driver side of the boat, cylinders 5678 are on the passenger side on your Ford V8 providing your engine is mounted with the water pump facing the front of the boat.
FYI:  I ran a 351w in my 78 Nautique with a burned valve for most of one summer.   There was a piece of pie burned out of the exhaust valve and that boat ran pretty well, kept fouling the plug but when the plug was fresh you could hardly notice the bad cylinder.   We were sking hard and barefooting so power was still pretty good.  I don't think compression is your issue at this point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dshack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-03-2021 at 2:46pm
Thanks for the suggestions. I've double checked the spark wiring but will definitely take a look again. I'd love it to be something that simple!!

@Jay: Sounds like a fun repair you had to do. Should I just pull the muffler to check? Or is there a way to test the baffle? Thanks!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JayG80 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-03-2021 at 8:14am
It could be a bad baffle in centek muffler causing back pressure and loss of top end power.  My story linked below.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bwinn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-03-2021 at 8:02am
David, did you confirm no plug wires got switched when you replaced the wires at the distributor yet? I also would check the gap on the plugs.
Burton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dshack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-02-2021 at 11:06pm
I took the boat out today and the power under load was significantly better, but it's still not running great. Whereas before I couldn't even plane, now I'm topping out around 32 mph / 2800 RPMs. It also hesitates when accelerating and just generally runs rough / surges. The idle is also still rough but that isn't as big of a deal to me right now.

I gotta admit I'm getting frustrated and could use some help with where to look next as it feels like I'm running short on options. Maybe replace the coil? Maybe the full distributor? I'm also gonna open up the main wiring harness and start tracing all the wiring to make sure everything is correct.

A few more details:
-It sounds a bit like a misfire at WOT, but I can't say for sure. I also think I hear a tinny clicking noise too
-About the last 3-4" of travel on the throttle doesn't increase RPM.
-I disabled the oil pressure switch / water temp switch to bypass limp
-I don't think it's a fuel issue (fuel pressure was 39 at WOT, all new injectors, new fcc tube, new filter, checked anti siphon, new fuel pressure regulator)
-I couldn't find any vacuum leaks
-New MAP sensor
-New rotor, cap, wires, plugs
-All the wires are making a spark

Now the other direction I do have to consider is more serious mechanical issues. I did another compression test with the engine warm (but dry) and got 100-115-115-115-110-95-100-110. Not great numbers, but if you adjust for my elevation they would be about 15-20 higher at sea level so more like 120-145 range. Is that a huge red flag? Think its worth a leak down test on the 95 cylinder?

Thanks for helping me stay sane!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-02-2021 at 7:28am
I think it's normal.

After a couple of seconds with the key ON and no PIP signal from the distributor to say that the engine is running the computer shuts things down

Somrtimes I think wrong, but I think in this case it's normal Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dshack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-01-2021 at 11:57pm
Update: Installed the correct injectors today. Engine fires right up and sounds much better, but I still have a rolling idle. Pulled the IAC valve and cleaned it, but it didn't look too dirty. Just to verify though, the solenoid fired when I turned the key on / engine off to open the valve, and then it closed a couple seconds later. Is that what should have happened, or should the valve have stayed open with KOEO?

I'm planning to check the vacuum hoses for a leak in the morning. Then I hope to do a lake test in the afternoon to see how the engine does under load. Fingers crossed the injectors / FCC tube solved my top end power issues!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dshack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-27-2021 at 5:54pm
Just for the sake of documentation, the TPS seems to check out.....0.95V at idle, 4.65V at WOT.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-27-2021 at 1:21pm
The seller sounds like an OK guyWink

BTW He goes by Lucky McElroy here on CCF
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-27-2021 at 1:05pm
Originally posted by dshack dshack wrote:

(Note: I cross posted this on PN -- hope that is OK. Let me know if that is a party foul and which site is a better place for these sort of questions!)


Can't help but notice that you got one reply to your post on PN...................from yourself Wink

They're better for some things and not for others

NautiqueJeff shows up on CCF at times with questions on older stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dshack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-27-2021 at 1:01pm
Thanks! I'm sure I am going to have plenty more surprises at this rate haha.

To the sellers credit, he has been super responsive and without any prompting sent me a generous refund on a portion of the purchase price.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-27-2021 at 12:42pm
Sounds to me like you're on the right track here Dave

Injectors pulsed open the same amount of time by the computer equals a buttload more fuel being injected Wink

Maybe the cylinder with the one decent looking plug had a plugged/restricted/screwed up injector

I wonder if you'll have any more "surprises" in store for you
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dshack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-27-2021 at 10:40am
Yeah I just was running short on time last night, going to check the TPS this morning. I may have just had a breakthrough though, I looked up the injectors and they are 42 lb, looks like they should be 24 lb. They were replaced recently by the prior owner. My theory is 42 lb injector + 10 psi fuel pressure was a workable combo. But now 42 lb injector + 40 psi fuel pressure is running incredibly rich.

Edit: Just ordered new 24 lb injectors here: https://lmr.com/item/M9593LU24A-K/Mustang-Ford-Racing-24lb-Fuel-Injector-Kit-w-Adapters-86-04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-27-2021 at 8:56am
I’m curious of why after getting a code telling you that your tps was out of range you took an entirely different path of pulling your injectors. With that hose degradation I understand but you can’t be jumping around. Investigate that code, if you have ? Google them- many of these ? have come up before on 5.0 Mustang forums . Some of those guys are sharp fixing them - they have been modifying and working on them for a longer period of time than any boat guys.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dshack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-27-2021 at 8:13am
Hmm, I know for sure I didnt unplug it, but the prior owner definitely could have. I forgot to mention that after getting code 53, I did clear the codes and run the boat for about 15 minutes on the water and retested them afterwards...no codes. Not sure if I gave it enough time for the code 53 to come back or if as you suspect that was an old irrelevant code.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-27-2021 at 6:04am
Strictly a guess here, but could you have accidentally unplugged the TPS while working on the engine?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dshack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-27-2021 at 12:03am
Making progress, but still having issues and I could use some help with where to go from here.

I replaced the tube in the FCC and immediately got 38 psi fuel pressure (had 10 before). But, the engine is now hard to start when cold. I have to put throttle at almost WOT while turning key to get it to start, whereas before fixing the FCC tube it fired right up without needing any throttle. It also wants to die when I return to idle until its warm..

I then took it out for a lake test and I'm also still unable to get over about 1600ish RPMs. The engine does sound better. It accelerates smoothly to about 1400ish RPMs, then it levels off at 1600. Pushing the throttle past this point makes it almost sound worse. I did run a quick key on engine off test and got code 53 which is TPS out of range.

After the disappointing lake test, I came home and pulled the fuel rails and injectors. They were all in good shape, couldn't find any debris. Flushed with lots of carb cleaner. I manually ran the injectors off a battery with an air compressor and the spray pattern looked good. Tested resistance and they were all about 15 ohms. I haven't tested it on a hose yet, but I don't have much hope that this cleaning did anything.

Also, I was curious and pulled all my almost new spark plugs to inspect them. 7 of the 8 plugs were covered in heavy carbon deposits, suggesting to me they are running rich maybe? Not sure why 1 was clean though? Could my formerly lean engine that now has great fuel pressure be overcompensating?

Next steps:
-I'm thinking the TPS could potentially be malfunctioning? I'll try to test that tomorrow.
-Inspect IAC / spark arrestor
-???

Thanks again for the help!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-26-2021 at 1:42pm
Standard fuel hose is only good for 15psi or so, as Ken instructed buy a quality fuel injection hose rated for 50 psi and you will be fine.  The local parts stores should all carry it.  Measure your connection so you know what size to ask for,  1/4, 5/16 or 3/8” are popular and available locally.   If the hose is rated for more pressure that is fine but it can’t be rated for less.
Glad you found the issue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-26-2021 at 9:47am
The inside doesn't exactly look too good either Wink

Plenty of deterioration there, if the inside was good, it wouldn't have leaked  and killed your pump output pressure.

The SAE 30R10 hose is submersible 
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