Boats For Sale:
Ford 351W/302 RH/LR Engine-Starter Rotation |
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jimships 
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Joined: February-09-2022 Location: texas Status: Offline Points: 18 |
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 Topic: Ford 351W/302 RH/LR Engine-Starter RotationPosted: February-15-2022 at 8:14pm |
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Sorry been busy rebuilding my 36 year old martinique.
When I get some time, I will start adding stuff on the other forum post. Life is taking priority right now. Lol |
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1986 Martinique
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KENO
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Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11112 |
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Posted: February-15-2022 at 7:30pm |
I don't know about anybody else, but I'm still waiting on some history like what their years of operation were, whether they went out of business or were merged with some other outfit, who most of their customers were since they were never really too popular in the ski boat segment, what some of the "firsts" you mention were and anything else you want to throw in. It could go in your other thread
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jimships
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Posted: February-15-2022 at 5:41am |
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Please post your pics to the new forum on All Things Commander.
I know others would love to see them. I did. Lol |
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1986 Martinique
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jimships
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Posted: February-11-2022 at 11:14am |
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OK the new post is open.
See " Commander Marine Engines_All things Commander |
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1986 Martinique
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67 ski nat
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Joined: July-19-2018 Location: Santa rosa Status: Offline Points: 1194 |
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Posted: February-11-2022 at 8:53am |
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Wow. Very nice engines gents.
I’m getting there |
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KENO
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Posted: February-11-2022 at 6:24am |
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Thanks Jim
I might have another question or 2, but I'll wait for your Commander engine thread.
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jimships
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Posted: February-11-2022 at 4:06am |
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The model is called "Commander Model 300" but in reality it is a standard 351W with a marine cam.
Not to be confused with a real Clevor 300 HP.
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1986 Martinique
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KENO
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Posted: February-10-2022 at 7:00pm |
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This picture from earlier in the thread, doesn't match any of your descriptions, it's an early blue, 351W, model 300
Must be 250 ish HP?
There are plenty of early blue Model 351W's, is this just "decal power" or is there a power difference? So many questions   |
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jimships
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Posted: February-10-2022 at 3:29pm |
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Second generation Commanders changed to Model 300 (260 hp). Jim Dietz was a marketer...lol.
Not same as first gen blue Clevor which is an honest 300 hp out of the box. Logs were either high polished or mill finish. Same logs. Aluminum manifolds were largely Nixson. |
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1986 Martinique
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KENO
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Posted: February-10-2022 at 12:29pm |
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Here are a couple of pictures, the first one is a Commander 300 351W Windsor like TRB mentioned, not a Clevor (Just count the valve cover bolts for a quick ID) Windsor =6 and Clevor=8 It has the shiny SS Commander logs The second one has the dull aluminum Commander logs  An old CCF post is where the TRB Clevor pictures of a Clevor in an American Skier Advance probably came from (interesting Craigs list finds pg392 has some discussion, but the pictures are gone). Those are "oh so ______" (fill in the blank with your own word) Some people go kinda ooh and aah and drool uncontrollably at times over the SS ones in the first picture. Some people like the PCM, Indmar hi rise style that seem to have stood the test of time.
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fanofccfan
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Joined: December-13-2009 Location: North Bend NE Status: Offline Points: 1781 |
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Posted: February-10-2022 at 10:53am |
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I now realize i do not have the "oh so sexy" exhaust logs. Mine are what appear to be cast aluminum and not shiney and stainless like Tim's!
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2004 196 LE Ski 1969 Marauder 19 1978 Ski
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jimships
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Posted: February-10-2022 at 9:46am |
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I'll try to start a new thread tonight on Commander Engines.
Love the "rams horn style" exhaust for a higher riser. FTR: If the paint is silver, it's from the new Commander company (John Rank, Jim Dietz). If blue, it's from the old company (aka Dudley Whitman - owner). John Rank was with Commander near or at the beginning of the company. Then he departed for better pastures after some years and later returned with Jim Dietz to buy the company from Dudley Whitman. cheers |
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1986 Martinique
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TRBenj
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Posted: February-10-2022 at 9:18am |
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The “300” referenced earlier is the normal Windsor, but the Clevor is a more interesting topic. Haven’t seen any first hand.
  
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KENO
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Posted: February-10-2022 at 7:48am |
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Just to make it easy for people to find any Commander info you should probably start a new thread titled something like "Commander Marine Engines Info" so it's not buried in a starter rotation thread"
I think the Clevor just sorta disappeared after a handful of years, with nobody producing a factory version of it Here's an old Commander ad for the Clevor on pg 84 of a 1987 copy of Water Ski Magazine |
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jimships
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Posted: February-10-2022 at 7:30am |
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Yes the distributor install (position of the distributor gear to the cam gear) sets the rotor position. I was talking/thinking stock.
The "Clevor" as we named it - was a "hybrid engine" using a Windsor standard block and the Aussi Cleveland 4V heads. Now we know that Cleveland heads don't work with a Windsor block - unless you have a special intake manifold. Well I found that manifold, and mated it with a 650 Holly "rejetted" slightly for more fuel delivery. On the dyno, it produced an honest 300+HP consistently. In fact, it worked so well we bought all the C4V heads in the Ford inventory - truck loads so I could build this very special motor. I believe Ford came out with a base engine following our lead. It is 275-285 if I recall and PCM is using it today. Yes, those SS exhaust manifolds were amazing. I learned a lot about casting stainless during those years. They rarely had issues and performed flawlessly. Being a 3 part system (inner core, flange and outer water jacket housing) made for some complicated tig welding and casting - but the parts held together through the constant heat cycles without flaws. We pressure tested them all. Only if you ran them dry was there ever a problem if I recall and that was a forward nose casting to exhaust stack minor crack at the joint. Easily fixed on the tig bench. I'll get to some more Commander History when I can. Lot's of stories and firsts. Best regards, .
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1986 Martinique
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fanofccfan
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Joined: December-13-2009 Location: North Bend NE Status: Offline Points: 1781 |
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Posted: February-10-2022 at 7:22am |
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Yes welcome! I am in the middle of replacing the “oh so sexy” exhaust manifold gaskets right now on a 1978 commander. I am using a set of felpro gaskets. The number escapes me but I hope they are correct!
Please keep the info coming!
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2004 196 LE Ski 1969 Marauder 19 1978 Ski
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KENO
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Posted: February-10-2022 at 6:52am |
Howdy I think your comment about the rotor pointing to the rear could use a little work/massaging/correcting because a lot of people have their rotor pointed in different directions than that when #1 is a TDC on the compression stroke, depending on how they installed their distributor. Otherwise since you were the GM/Chief Engineer at Commander, and there's not much good Commander info/history on the engines and the "oh so sexy" exhaust manifolds, if you could give a little history of the company and the engines, a lot of people here would really like that. One thing that comes to mind is the Commander "300" version of the 351W. There seems to be some confusion about that engine, like whether it was 300 HP or more like the run of the mill 250ish PCM number from the same time period and if it was 300, what was done to it to get that 300 HP.. I'm figuring that more questions will come along from people And..............welcome to CCF
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jimships
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Posted: February-10-2022 at 5:40am |
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Hi Gang,
Here, I have collected information (from others - hats off to you guys) about engine and starter rotation on Ford (or GM) engines. My hope is it helps people reading this form learn how to find their engine rotation and know their starter rotation. I'm not going to go into the differences between RH and LH engines, just know the cam, distributor gear, starter and damper are all different. Oil pump is the same. TIP: Paint your new starters with black "Appliance Epoxy" before installing it. It will live about 3 times longer. Drown it in paint - just not the inside of the nose of the starter so the bendix can operate freely. Grease it up instead. . FTR: On Fords, the distributors all turn the same way which is counter-clockwise looking down on it. Yes, the rotor is pointing to the rear when on #1 TDC. Make sure you are not on the exhaust stroke if setting the timing. Watch the #1 intake valve close and then when the #1 piston comes up you are heading towards #1 TDC. Watch your damper for the timing marks. A little history. Henry Ford the father of the Ford Motor Company was right handed. That's why when you walked up to a Model-T, you cranked it "clockwise facing the car." It's also why every standard automotive engine (Ford or GM) turns LH (again...Clockwise facing the front of the motor or LH viewed from flywheel end or rear.) A little more history. I was the past GM and Chief Engineer of Commander Marine Engines, I had to know this stuff well but the cobwebs are starting to form. Yes you old timers...I'm the one who created their "Commander Parts Manual" without Ford numbers and only Commander Numbers. I did it to sell parts not provide a way for you to buy from the local parts house. Sorry. I promise, if I ever find the stack of papers with the corresponding Ford numbers to that manual, I will post them. should have them in storage somewhere. LOL) BTW: My restoration of a 36 year old 1986 Martinique continues...I only wish Correct Craft did a better job building a waterproof floor in those older boats. One mat skin over plywood - really? On what boat planet would that have passed boatbuilding 101 muster? Kidding of course... Here you go guys....a collection of info.      |
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1986 Martinique
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jimships wrote: