Boat Dr. shell oil question |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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Posted: December-20-2007 at 7:04pm |
Sorry guys I aLso stopped reading after the boycott but since there are a couple posts I will answer a couple questions for general knowledge. I was the one that had two failed cams, they were on different engines but both were b built within a year, prior to that I had built or helped build at least a dozen and a half pushrod engines and never had a problem. Both of mine were under a hundred hours and I consider them to breakin related failures. Anyway what I know from engineering/specifying cam shafts for reciprocating compressors (not exactly the same but we used the same suppliers and methods and I visited many domesitic and a couple overseas) compressor camshafts and Cam hardening technique and hardness varies but in general rockwell c hardness is typically between 55 and 60 I have seen specs as low as 53 and as high as 62. A good stock automotive cam is usually chilled mold cast and the hardening is fairly uniform, these cams should have spectacular life, but material and process control have a big effect. Cheap Cams built in large volume are often induction hardened which is a surface only hardening (.050 max) that can achieve at best a Rockwell of 58. I dont know how often this is used in automotive cam applications but little compressor sized cams it is very prevalent. Lifters I saw being made overseas were exclusively induction hardened since you only need to harden the bottom surface of the lifter, nobody domestic cared to tell me how they hardened thier lifters but I suspect most are induction hardened and this is the real area where the trouble starts. Valve seats and other parts where you want a small area of a large part hardened are usually induction hardened. Low volume custom grind cams I would assume are all flame hardened. I have a cam research (roller) cam at home that looks flame hardened and the last isky flat tappet cam I got was also flame hardened. Flame hardening can get you up to a HRC 65 and a depth of .180 but is very much dependant on the equipment used or the skill of the operator. There are some plants in china that simply have guys with torches and buckets of coolant... they can produce a good cam but do they? well even a broke clock is right twice a day. I didn't pay attention to the type of hardening of the edelbrock or the comp cam that I had fail but both were very high volume off the shelf grinds with a the uniform black look that is usually a product of chilled mold casting Number of hours any system like this last without significant wear is a combination of hardness, finish, pressure, and lubrication for the most part. You can find out which is the problem but anyone who does for a one off build is not using time effectively. Sae design life recommendation for a cam is 4000 hours, but the testing is done at a average rpm and loading for the vehicle, which is less than what you would see in a ski boat. The formulas to predict cam life involve more symbols and constants than i can describe here but I can attest that the friction factor, oil boundary layer thickness, oil breakdown and oil supply heat have a greater effects on cam/follower life than mean hardness of the two materials and the pressure on them (although pressure also effects oil boundary layer thickness) by more than an order of magnitude.. |
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adamt
Gold Member Joined: July-18-2007 Location: Orlando, FL Status: Offline Points: 927 |
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When I got my 73 skier in june, the first thing i wanted to do is put full synthetic in it because that's all i use in our cars. The mechanic said to use AMSOIL 15-W-40 MARINE/DIESEL. He said that in an automotive application the 302 engine held 5 quarts of oil with a filter, but in a marine application the usually hold around 4 quarts because the engine is tilted and installing too much oil will cause the crackshaft to splash into the crankcase oil and cause excessive crankcase pressure and rough idle.
The bottom line: Am I doing the right thing, I want nothing but the best oil in her.(AMSOIL 15W40 MARINE/DIESEL)?!? |
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7953 |
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So how does deisel marine 15-40 like Amsoil relate to this, ( for a modern roller cam engine)?
Eric, I understand your frustration, but at least your Dearbo customers are easy to get along with? |
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87BFN owner
Grand Poobah Joined: August-25-2006 Location: Saline, MI Status: Offline Points: 2194 |
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Most all footing runs are above 3500 rpms. Some of this runs can be a considerable amount of time.
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anthonylizardi
Gold Member Joined: July-25-2007 Location: DFW, TX, USA Status: Offline Points: 836 |
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I dont want to cause anymore argument but I wanted to find more about this topic since I don't know anything. My wife work at Frito Lay HQ. She is in the Fleet department so I ask her to ask their engineer what they thought about the topic. They have confirm everything you guys have said. The goodness of ZDDP and why it was eliminated. That's because it can clog your catalic converter. They did mentioned that a diesel engine can be used but then later they had a discussion about an interesting point. Their point is, and I quote:
"If your engine will operate in a high performance environment, do not use a diesel oil. Use a gas oil (Preferably Synthetic ) and add ZDDP to it from an additive. Diesel oils will work fine in gas engine in typical operation environments of 3,500 RPM's or less, but under sustained high rpm applications they will foam as they have a higher detergent additive package with fewer stabilizers." I believe most of our boat would not be operating above those RPMs for long time but if you do keep this in mind. |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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Good whiskey don't drink the hard stuff too often but had a couple CC's during the boat parade last Sat night.
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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I didnt mean to put you guys on the spot, especially you TR, cause i sure the f couldnt answer those 5 questions. i think it was a combination of the a parts supplier yearly x-mas visit with some CC and ginger and the dealership doing the warranty on the 4.3 i just finished (without being paid yet) telling me i didnt use the updated flywheel which with the paperwork says nothing about an updated flywheel. they will find a reason for warrnty. man was i f-n irratated that day a matter of fact im still irratated..
sh*t 79 were in the wish we had a CC club, and i always thought cc stood for canadian club |
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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Hell ERIK we have to yank your chain every now and then
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Geno
Senior Member Joined: September-05-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 179 |
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Motor oil has differences???
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21169 |
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We are way beyond beating a dead horse here, but Ill answer anyways. Just to clarify- it wasnt my motor that wiped 2 lobes, that was Munday. I dont have the answers to your questions Eric, but even if I did thats not the point. I agree that a good rebuilder will tear down the engine and try to determine the cause of failure without speculation. My stance is that I dont want to be tearing down my engine looking for reasons why it failed. Im going to do everything in my power to make sure it doesnt fail in the first place- which includes using oil with ZDDP in my flat tappets. Simple as that. |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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79 dont send it to me, i dont have the equipment to tell you why it failed
I will be the man here and apoligize, i was under the bus it ran me over the first time and it was backing up for seconds.... Boat doc: were even, and as of this moment i too will boycott this thread |
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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I will agree with chris on the boycott,end of post for the boat dr. |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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Hell I didn't even read the damn think but I did see me getting thrown under the bus thanks Eric,
I'm boycotting this thread now, run what you want and if the cam looses a couple lobes send it to Eric so he has proof or can positively identify the cause. but really I only saw the one line guess i'll read all of it in the morning |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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Boat doc, i have never ever once said that zinc is not needed in oils, the way you are attacking this is you are trying to get your cheering section, which i assume are the guys you met in person at Green Lake and are trying to make them take sides and may put them in an awkward position. and you come across as to whatever you say is the bible and you guys need to live by it
you belittled me by telling me i should stick to transmissions and you let your cheering section know that you are probably smarter than me which maybe you are, a matter of fact i really think you are. you too are certified in many different areas which gives you credentials. I also told you i was certified in many areas Blah blah blah. we are both grease monkeys and people look to us for sound advice because again we have been doing this for many years. i dont own a Correct Craft.....niether does 79, why do you not attack him for that? probably because you met him in person. I guess you have to be part of the elite group because now with that statement i feel like a third wheel. As for me sticking to trannys you should stick to changing spark plugs as your certified to do, I may at times come across as if im bragging as to i did this i did that,im certified at this im certified at that, all i am trying to do is convey experiences and mistakes and pass them along so maybe it will help one of you guy's out with a problem, for 24 years averaging 50 hours a week people pay me to rebuild thier engines or transmissions, they trust me to do so, over the years it adds up to many experiences, many problems and there is not to many things that dont get seen in those hours spent rebuilding both of the above. over the years you see many cam failures and alot of assuming goes on. one particular was with a comp cam that failed to a point that it was almost a broomstick and of course i wondered why, you get alot of weekend warriers that come around to the shop telling you why it failed and you take that all in and try to figure out why it failed. any ways I called Comp cams and explained everything thing thier in house PE, (professional engineer) as Joe mentioned. he told me without seeing the cam that it was from improper break-in and the oil i was using. this was 3 years ago, i explained to him as i bragg to you guys that i built many engines and never seen this type of failure this bad and he once again insisted it was something i did. OK i reasoned with him because he sure the hell sounded like he knew what he was talking about...fine, ordered the identical cam with flats, completely dis-assembled the engine cleaned roughly a paint cap full of metal shavings, re-assembled and fired up the engine, the customer doesnt pay the labor or for the parts on the second cam so noe the out of pocket expences are adding up. sure as sh*t 4 days later the car is on the back of a flat bed and guess what the problem was...a failed cam. sh*t i f-d up again after all i do this everyday for 24 years and i used the wrong oil again. needless to say the lifter bores on this engine for this year couldnt except the lift of the cam because the bores were not perpindicular, i found this out after the fact and it was an isolated problem that took alot of research to find out. MY POINT once again Boat doctor, and maybe i have no frickin positive advice for this topic. If you can answer me these 5 questions on cams or even you Tr, I will change my thinking on cam failures, i look at things logically and i KNOW ZINC IS F_IN NEEDED in oils for proper lubrication. I am not missing the point i highly recommend the use of zinc oils on flat tappet cams. a rebuilder tears things apart and looks for reasons... they dont speculate 1- look at bowties picture and tell me why the cam is worn the way it is 2- how many hours does it take to fail a cam once non-zinc oil is introduced 3- what is the process used to harden cams and what rockwell are they 4-how many hours should i expect out of a properly maintained cam 5- why did TR have 2 failed cams in his engine |
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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This makes me want to put my engine back the way it was maybe with a warmer cam and not worry about it. I'm a pretty good keeper of my equipment, and it would be much easier on my wallet than the looks of my other options. |
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backfoot100
Platinum Member Joined: January-03-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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James; I really don't know about the motorcycle oils as you asked. I would think that they would work out fine in a flat tappet boat motor but I would assume that they would be pretty pricey. I do know that if I owned a bike that's the oil that I would be using though. As far as the M1 15W-50 oil that they recommend for flat tappets; thats the only oil that I've been putting in my boat for over 15 years. I have absolutely no complaints. When I tore it down after 800 HR's to change the heads and intake, the lifter valley looked brand new. I've said this before. I've been a devout Mobil 1 user for every 4-stroke engine that I've owned since 1983 and I won't ever run standard dino again. That's just me but I'm pretty biased. |
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When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.
Eddie |
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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Did you notice the ZDDP was 800ppm or less to not damage the emissions systems.
I think the old formula was around 1800 ppm.That is a heck of a difference,they also said nothing about the zinc, HELLO.What does the Z in the ZDDP stand foe????Zappa Sounds like Eric wrote the article,and is speculating that the zinc is not needed nor used............boat dr |
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87BFN owner
Grand Poobah Joined: August-25-2006 Location: Saline, MI Status: Offline Points: 2194 |
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The last two oils on the chats had the highest levels of ZDDP. But the chart said they were formulated for motorcycles. Is it possible that these two oils would have the right detergents to make them usuable in our boats? Also there were a couple oils they recommended for use with flat tappet cams, but they are fully synthetic. What is the opinion on those oils?
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backfoot100
Platinum Member Joined: January-03-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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Found this question and answer for the Mobil 1 product line. Also has a link to an associated table for the phospherous content in each of their oils. Kind of interesting to look at.
Mobil 1 ZDDP question and chart |
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When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.
Eddie |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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are you guys done beating this horse? I'm sure it's been dead for awhile now since your repeating your self's again.
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behindpropeller
Platinum Member Joined: July-31-2006 Status: Offline Points: 1810 |
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Tranny in our truck is not shifting right, if I send you a pic of the truck can you tell me whats wrong |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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I am not dis-agreeing about zinc in the oil, Ive read the articles and listened to the arguments. im having a problem with a cam failing and automatically everyone is fixated on no zinc in the oil and the real reason may be something entirely irrelevant. someone talked to an oil expert... a couple of cams fail and you assume its because of the zinc. Without the experts who are trained to look at failed cams day in and day out, without knowing the engines history, without maintanace records, without explaining why the other 400000 other engines out there in the same identical environment are still running. with out boxing that cam up and sending it to the manufacturer for an in-depth analysis there is no way that im going to believe the speculation as to why these cams failed because no one on this site has hard evidence to back this up.
maybe i should stick to trannys and if i get a call on why the transmission isnt working send me a picture and i'll let you know why |
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13513 |
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Which is why these guys are using the oil with the zinc...eliminating the variables. (been running the VR1 20-50 all year) |
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Behl
Senior Member Joined: December-05-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 404 |
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boat dr
Am planning on it!! |
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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Steve, boy am I slow, just put together a face with the name.
Enjoyed you at GL and hopem to see you again next year........Boat dr |
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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Eric, you are speculating even there . you don't have enough info, I ask you again have you read the articles that are listed here.
No I think not, I have and gained a lot of knowledge from them.Knowledge is power in my book. And as far as schooling goes I feel I know as much or maybe a little more as to the marine industry. I too have a few GM Detroit Diesel schools in there too.They dont mean squat as to this topic. Mercruiser Master Tech. Yamaha Stern Drive Advanced Tech. Mercury Master Tech. BLA BLA BLA..... They taught us nothing about cam and lifter failure in any of these schools. Eric read the articles, you may learn something NEW, I know that is hard for you to fathom, but try it............. |
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Behl
Senior Member Joined: December-05-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 404 |
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Thanx for the heads up
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21169 |
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Behl, make sure you stick with the VR1. The conventional Valvoline Racing (blue bottle) has a minimal detergents package with a recommended oil change interval on the order of ~500 miles. The VR1 has a detergents package that calls for >3000 mile change intervals. Both formulations still have the ZDDP. |
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Behl
Senior Member Joined: December-05-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 404 |
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It,s already getting to be a long winter. When will Spring arrive??
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87BFN owner
Grand Poobah Joined: August-25-2006 Location: Saline, MI Status: Offline Points: 2194 |
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I have been reading along and I think everyone needs to do what they think is best for them. The info has been put out there as it was recieved. Draw your own conclusion, but once you make your choice live and die by that choice.
You would swear there were naked women posted on this topic based on the number of visists it has seen. Does that suggest to anyone other then me how important some of us believe this issue to be? |
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