Redneck Perfect Pass |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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It will hold the RPM's. Speed will only change if the load on the hull changes such as turning. It would hold speed through a slalom coarse.
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behindpropeller
Platinum Member Joined: July-31-2006 Status: Offline Points: 1810 |
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You could put more or less magnets on the shaft to give better/worse resolution too. Tim |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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you pretty much want the magnets away from the rear output bearing, possibly put them on the stainless shaft
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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80 Ski-Tique
Newbie Joined: November-21-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 38 |
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Yes we ride with ballast but that is not what really makes a difference. We pull so hard against the rope doing certain tricks that I can pull the boat off plane if I want to. My buddy is really big and built and when he pulls or rails the motor has to gain 400-500 rpm's sometimes just to maintain the same speed. A shaft sensor doesn't compensate for prop slippage and that's why a good perfect pass unit uses a GPS speed signal to maintain speed. My boat pulling wakeboarders can run anywhere from 12- 26 mph at the exact same rpm, it depends on the rider's weight and how hard they pull against the line. I agree it doesn't change much pulling slalom skiers but your not close to your planing speed when pulling them like pulling a wakeboarder which is usually around 20-23 mph. I can keep my boat within 3 mph but that feels like a big difference when your riding unlike skiing where a few mph is not that noticable.
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Dank
Senior Member Joined: April-05-2005 Location: Austin, TX Status: Offline Points: 296 |
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From the Perfect Pass Manual:
---------- Section 5. WAKEBOARD MODES There are two operating modes to choose from. RPM Mode or Speed based Wakeboard Mode which uses the signal from the paddle wheel. Why two choices ? Some prefer the pull of the RPM mode which is very smooth, particularly if you do not have a large load such as fat sacs & numerous people. If the boat is heavily loaded, the rpm mode may not control well coming out of the turns or recover speed quickly enough after a strong pull. RPM mode is also ideal for open water slalom skiing and other towed water sports. The speed based wakeboard mode is generally more accurate and load does not generally affect its ability to control speed. ---------- I don't care much about the turning as we are almost always pulling in a straight line. Also, the ballast comment doesn't make sense to me...once up to speed it will take the same RPMs to pull the boat the same speed, we're not changing the amount of ballast on the fly. The recovery from a hard pull could be a concern though. |
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"I don't know what the world may need, but a V8 engine's a good start for me"
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behindpropeller
Platinum Member Joined: July-31-2006 Status: Offline Points: 1810 |
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Ballast does make a difference because it changes the angle of attack that your boat rides in the water. Once that angle of attack reaches a certain point your boat essentially stalls and looses plane and is now just pushing though the water. Couple the extra weight with some hard pulls and the ballast makes a difference.
Tim |
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RainDog
Platinum Member Joined: February-21-2007 Location: Mke/Grn Lake WI Status: Offline Points: 1387 |
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What if we ditch the paddle wheel and go GPS?
I just got off the phone with Summit Racing. I was checking into a typical Stewart Warner boat speedo and pitot tube. He mentioned there was a company - Nordskog - that makes a GPS receiver that can be custom configured to drive ANALOG electric (auto) speedometers. Cool for me, I thought, I could get accuracy and keep the vintage look for the Classic. Then I thought of this thread. Since the pulse output of the GPS receiver can be customized, how about interfacing it into the 'cruise control' modulating device and bypassing paddle wheels, magnets and other speed sensors? It costs $191 from Summit. Not too crazy, me thinks. Redneck Zero Off anyone? |
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Brktracer
Senior Member Joined: December-20-2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 387 |
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Funny story. Thread jack for a min... My uncle, who was driving a '78 Pinto, was stopped for not wearing his seatbelt. He asked the state patrol officer, "Would you strap yourself into a '78 Pinto?" Obviously the officer wasn't amused and wrote a ticket. Had I been the officer, I would have let him go! As far as the "cruise control" I'm really curious about the system. I've learned enough at work to barely be dangerous with controls. I'd like to see the trigger wheel installed on the shaft (pics please). Also, is the system tunable? For example, can the PID gains be adjusted? I'll strongly consider installing one if I can get more info. I could really benefit from one. If the price is right I might go for it! Matt |
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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Matt, putting the finishing touches on the unit now.Sunday was a shake down cruise, and all was fine till a magnet slung off......
Unit will hold a set speed , coast ,slow down and speed up.It appears to give a 100 rpm increase or decrease at each bump of the up or down control button.Have not checked with the GPS but it looks like this is about 1 MPH per bump. But the COOLEST THING is the resume feature.Slow down and want to return to previous speed , Hit Resume ....Too Cool.. It also has a Automatic and Manual transmission mode.This feature , when in Manual Transmission mode will "kick the unit out" when it "senses" a rpm rise.As if you mashed the clutch,or if you accelerate slightly. So far I have less than 125.00 dollars but have about 10 hours labor to fine tune the set up. Still dollars ahead VS A Real Perefect Pass.My wallet is still green and my right foot is happy. Not to sound too dumb Matt but what is PID gain and how will that effect the logic of this unit. There are two magnets mounted to the coupler and another wire connected to the tach.Seemed to work fine , but will only give you a set RPM and not Speed.........Boat dr |
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Brktracer
Senior Member Joined: December-20-2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 387 |
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The easiest way to describe PID gain is the speed at which the controller makes adjustments. For example...think about pulling someone skiing. If you are running 1 mph too slow and you push the throttle up the boat might increase in speed by 2 mph (just for example). You pull back and the boat decreases speed by 2 mph. As you keep doing this you can never hold the correct speed. You are trying to run 26 but the boat is at 25. Push down...27...pull back...25...push down 27...this continues and you never reach 26. Another example...as above boat is running 25 and you want to run 26. You push down just a little and the boat runs 25.1 ... a little more and 25.2 ... a little more and 25.28 ... a little more and 25.30 ... a little more and ...25.31 ... at this rate you will never get to 26.
P=porportion, I=integral, D=derivative. Typically D=0. P and I values are tuned to prevent the conditions above. I hope this makes a little sense. If you want RPM control you should be able to use the tach signal (or ignition trigger signal) as it is a magnetic trigger! The distributor runs 1/2 crank speed so there are 4 triggers per rpm, assuming you are using a magnetic trigger which most electronic ignitions do. It should work with a points trigger also as they basically do the same thing. In other words, you might not even need the trigger on the output shaft, which it sounds like you have had some trouble with! The engine and shaft RPM's are 1:1 or whatever your trans ratio is. I'm using a "crank trigger" on my race car. It has magnets in the "wheel" that trigger a pick-up thus triggering the ignition system. The magnets are installed by drilling parallel to the crank centerline so they don't come out. Maybe this design will help with your installation. I'm all about some redneck-rigged-up-stuff that works and everybody says, "How'd you do that?" Then you can say the famous last words, "Hold my beer and watch this!" Matt |
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Kristof
Grand Poobah Joined: October-08-2007 Location: Bree, Belgium Status: Offline Points: 3397 |
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This thread is very intresting, but to us tech illiterated guys it sounds a bit Chinese without pics...
Could we see some pictures please please please...? |
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- Gun control means: using BOTH hands!
- Money doesn't make one happy, but when it rains cats and dogs, it's still better to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle... |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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BD will it hold the RPMs on a incline?
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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RainDog
Platinum Member Joined: February-21-2007 Location: Mke/Grn Lake WI Status: Offline Points: 1387 |
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Matt is right, but the simplest way to look at is PID gain is how much correction is made per unit of error.
If the error is 1 mph below set point and we have a gain of 100, the correction would be + 100 rpm. If the error is 1 mph below set point and we have a gain of 200, the correction would be + 200 rpm. These numbers may not be the exactly what you are working with, but the concept should be the same. |
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65 'cuda
Platinum Member Joined: July-12-2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Status: Offline Points: 1091 |
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Raindog, I'd like to look at the output of the gps unit your speaking of and compare to what the Cruise module likes to see. Billy do you know resolution capabilities of the cruise? And what the differential needs to be before it decides to make a correction? You guys might have invented a 350.00 gps based perfect pass.
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RainDog
Platinum Member Joined: February-21-2007 Location: Mke/Grn Lake WI Status: Offline Points: 1387 |
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Gary,
I got limited info from the tech at Summit. He said you can custom order the output of the GPS. I'm assuming that it adheres to standard electronic speedometer output. He mentioned the SW gauge I want to use needs a 8 pulse output while other gauges need 16 pulse output. This might mean a lot more to you or other guys around here. I'm trying to get additional info in the next week or so. You could call Summit and ask about NRD-S9020. This is the sending unit they recommended. The customer service rep was at x5836 and was really helpful. Maybe you could get a number for Nordskog as well. There isn't any contact info on their web site. Let us know what you learn. I can't experiment on this for a month or so. |
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Brktracer
Senior Member Joined: December-20-2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 387 |
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I printed the instructions of the internet and started looking through them. I have little doubt this kit will work, and I bet it can be massaged to work really good!
For the money (I think you said ~$100) it could be a dream come true for us "red necks." I have some ideas how to make a rope operated switch (like the one on perfect pass) work. It appears the gains are not adjustable on the unit with the exception of a coarse adjustment. The kit has 3 levels of "sensitivity." However, this might not be a problem because the servo could be installed in such a way as to change the mechanical advantage it has on the carb linkage therefore fine tuning the "gain." This is a really neat kit and could work well on our boats with some fine tuning. I'm definately interested! One precaution. ANY TIME you start fooling around with the carb linkage be VERY CAREFUL as they can hang open if everything is not perfect. Test it a few times with the engine off and know to turn off the key if it hangs open. I've seen some really bad things happen from linkage hanging open! |
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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Matt, 3/4 of the hours spent on the install were used on the "linkage and return".I could spend an hour trying to describe the pain I went thru to "fail proof" the linkage and the return springs.
Simple is always my mode but this does not translate to ease of fabrication. If you would like more info or just want to talk "redneck" my phone is always close and love to talk to fellow CCFans.......Billy 1-318-386-2825 |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Online Points: 21169 |
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Heres some pics that Doc sent me of his set up.
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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Tim, thank you bunches for posting the pics for this Old Man.As you can see there is not much to see,the switch on the dash, and the actuator cable sitting beside the Teleflex throttle cable.
The return spring is not needed but was installed for safety reasons. The speed sensor is mounted in a hidden area,close to the coupler.The two magnets, epoxied to the flanges and the glass tape , just for security of the magnets. The actuator is mounted with the cable going to the floor and then following the throttle cable. Wiring for the control unit then passes along the starboard stringer to terminate at the swich mounted on the dash. Works better than I would have dreamed, and still have coins for a couple of gallons of fuel............. The "keep it originals " will scoff but..........Boat dr |
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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I applaud your effort Doc! You saved a few pennies and your foot.
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Brktracer
Senior Member Joined: December-20-2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 387 |
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So it works fine? How does it do around 20 mph? That's the hardest speed to hold...boarding speed. Skiing is not problem.
Where did you mount the actuator? Is the actuator strong enough to move the pedal up and down? It kind of looks like you installed a "slip link" on the morse cable but I can't tell for sure. Looks like I'll have one soon! Sweet! Thanks for the pics! |
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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Matt,the last pic shows the location in the upper front corner of the motor area. Directly behind the drivers seat.
The description of the "pull to open" as "slip linkage" and a good desriptive. Spent more time there than on the wiring and install on the rest of the parts. As far as using it in the "slower mode" I have used it from 1000 to 3500 and see no difference in setting nor holding any given rpm. Hard turns seem to have little effect maintaining a set speed.More testing will be done again comr the weekend.....Boat dr |
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behindpropeller
Platinum Member Joined: July-31-2006 Status: Offline Points: 1810 |
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Dr-
I will be installing mine this weekend. Any best time to call you?? Thanks Tim |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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A brick on the pedal wouldve done the same thing
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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Brktracer
Senior Member Joined: December-20-2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 387 |
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Eric, I can't even buy a brick for $100!
Billy, Where did you buy the kit? The ones I see for around $100 are the vacuum operated ones. I think the electric version would work better since my cam doesn't make alot of vacuum. Thanks! |
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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The servo is indeed vacuum , your cam cannot be "wilder than mine. The tech said all it needed was 9" of vacuum and if the motor cannot hold that, a canster seems to be an easy fix. Some smaller 4 cyl. cars do not have enough at cruise so this was the fix.
I saw several of the motor drive type servo's , but chose the vacuum type for ease of install and the dependability factor. Water and drive motors do not mix...................Boat dr |
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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Tim, give me a call anytime today......
I will leave early for a trip to town about 4;30 cental time 1-318-386-2825.....Billy |
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behindpropeller
Platinum Member Joined: July-31-2006 Status: Offline Points: 1810 |
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This is divorce insurance. |
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RainDog
Platinum Member Joined: February-21-2007 Location: Mke/Grn Lake WI Status: Offline Points: 1387 |
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Gary,
I found some more info on the S9020 Nordskog GPS unit. It can put out 8000 pulses per mile or 16000 pulses per mile. I have a data sheet if you want to look at it. If the PPM needed is not 8K or 16K, they have a pulse converter module for about $100, model S9000. It will translate to almost any PPM for any specific application. I have a data sheet on this as well. I'm pretty sold on using the S9020 to drive an analog Stewart Warner speedo. I'm waiting to find a good, matching SW gauge on Ebay to keep the costs within reason. |
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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Steve and fellow CCFans.....Got it going now.
Just got off the lake and everything works great, much better than expectations. Seems as if the last round of glitches was due to the "Brake interupt" was not grounded properly. After several hours of checking and re checking that was all that was left. Set the PPM at 2000 turn #3 and #7 dip switches to on all else to off.All functions work fine,speed up is about 75 rpm's per bump in both the up and down modes. 1500 rpm's hold rock steady, have not tried a skier but hard turns yeild no drop in speed.I have spent a lot of time and less than $150.00 to get the desired results.............Redneck Perfect Pass |
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