ethanol in gas =poor perofrmance? |
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mtguy
Senior Member Joined: August-04-2008 Location: Priest Lake, ID Status: Offline Points: 165 |
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Posted: August-07-2008 at 6:21pm |
Hi all, I posted a few days ago regarding a surging problem. "79" gave me something to look for -idle speed control, and I'll look this weekend at that. But in talking with another guy who has a Cobalt with a 350 in it who is having similar problems, his mechanic thinks it might be because they started putting 10% ethanol in all of the gas sold in Idaho (where my cabin/boat is). The theory is that ethanol, which is very corrosive, might be causing issues with gas tanks... What does everybody think about this? I hope it's not the case as what am I to do import ethanol-free gas from Canada?
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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I think you need to stop talking to that mechanic because he's not to bright.
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behindpropeller
Platinum Member Joined: July-31-2006 Status: Offline Points: 1810 |
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Yes...it lowers performance.
No...it is not causing your engine to surge. Tim |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Online Points: 21169 |
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Agreed. Many parts of the country can only get fuel with 10% ethanol (like here in the northeast). While our boats cant run on 85% ethanol (E85), they run just fine on E10. |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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the tank issues and other complaints are related to E-85 and not the 10% in gas that's been used since the early 80's. The performance lose yes there is some but try and see how much because you will not see a difference with 10%.
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Booty
Groupie Joined: July-30-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 46 |
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Ethanol is a clean form of alcohol and the first cut coming off the column would be methanol which would adsorb moisture in your gasoline tank . Thats a good thing, Gasoline in its self is loaded with sulfur and is corrosive in its own right. Don't worry about it. As far as performance ethanol is not the greatest octane booster and probably does hinder performance/ milage a little at 10%. Just make sure you are using at least 89 octane fuel and it will be alright
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Booty
82,2001 82,2001 |
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mtguy
Senior Member Joined: August-04-2008 Location: Priest Lake, ID Status: Offline Points: 165 |
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Thanks all of you. I guess I really showed my motor ignorance with that questions! I do know in general that ethanol is very corrosive and thus they can't transport it the same way as other petroleum products, so it kind of made sense. In Spokane they use ethanol in the winter months and it definitely takes away a couple of mile a gallon in my truck. Guess I'm back to cleaning the idle speed control.
PS It wasn't my mechanic, I was talking to a guy with a Cobalt with a 350 in it who was having similar issues and it was his mechanic that suggested it. Thanks again everybody |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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sometimes those guys in the cobolts have more money than brains.
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stepper459
Senior Member Joined: June-17-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 349 |
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There have indeed been problems in boats with (allegedly) 10% Ethanol blended gasoline. Part of the problem is improperly blended fuel so it's more than 10%; but still older boats that have buildup of "varnish" from years of gasoline in the tanks, fuel lines, etc. have had problems when the ethanol is introduced, because it is a stronger solvent than conventional blends of gasoline, even at 10% ethanol. Other problems such as water collecting in tanks, and breakdown of the liner of fiberglass tanks, have also been caused by these (supposedly) low percentage blends of ethanol gasoline. I have seen some nasty, watery crap come out of the fuel tanks of boats that had E10 in the tanks just a few times...
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mtguy
Senior Member Joined: August-04-2008 Location: Priest Lake, ID Status: Offline Points: 165 |
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Thanks Stepper. That was a clearer explanation than the original one given to me that made me post the original question. My tank is plastic (roto...?) I've heard that putting stabil in each tank might help. What are you recommending people do as it sounds like you're in the biz? Thanks in advance.
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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always 2 sides to a coin, ethanol is here and you have to make the best of it. I look at it this way, guys throw carb and injecter cleaner in the tank and that is probably very minimal. 10% of 30 gallons is 3 gallons, i would think 3 gallons of an alcohol based liquid is going to do something
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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lewy2001
Grand Poobah Joined: March-19-2008 Location: NSW Australia Status: Offline Points: 2234 |
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Its funny here in Australia now the oil company's are telling us E10 fuels are OK.
It was only a couple of years ago they were telling us how bad it was for our engines and used ethanol free as a marketing ploy. What they were not telling us though was thay they were using it as a octane booster in their premium unleaded fuels which were higher octane and had fuel injector cleaners in them (i.e. ethanol). Now Sell Australia have a myth busting section on their web site. To bust the myths that they in fact created. Myth 1. Ethanol burns hot due to an earlier ‘pre-detonation ratio’ (i.e. it explodes too soon) and can corrode engines over time. Ethanol has a high octane (Research and Motor Octanes) and as such ethanol based fuels have a natural tendency to resist compressive precombustion in engine combustion chambers. Its incorporation into fuel, in controlled quantities, will have the effect of lifting octane and allowing exposure to greater heat and compression in engines without 'pinging' (precombustion). The potential for corrosion due to ethanol has, in the past, been due to improper use by other retailers of lower quality ethanol at inappropriate blend ratios without corrosion protection. Along with this standard, Shell fuel-grade ethanol contains a corrosion inhibitor additive to ensure that corrosion due to trace impurities naturally present in ethanol is minimised. Myth 2. Ethanol fails to lubricate the engine like petrol so there is a potential for pistons and other moving parts within the combustion chamber to ‘seize up’ over time. Lubrication of piston rings in spark ignition 4 stroke engines is a result of traces of lubricating oil trapped between rings and combustion chamber wall. It is not due to the lubricating qualities of the motor spirit, so the impact of ethanol in this part of the engine will be negligible. Lubrication of other components such as fuel pumps of moving fuel system components is, however, dependent on the lubricating property of the fuel. In these cases ethanol contents of up to 10% have not been shown to cause excessive / noticeable wear in any other countries where Shell markets ethanol containing fuels. Shell has extensive experience with biofuels and is the largest global retailer of ethanol containing fuels. Shell markets ethanol containing petrol in several countries and has no records of adverse lubrication issues relating to these fuels. Also, a review of the available literature / studies also does not indicate that fuel system wear due to lack of lubrication is an issue. Myth 3. Ethanol can corrode fuel lines or anything rubber, including seals. Ethanol in high concentrations has been known to affect some plastic and rubber fuel system components. However, it is advisable to check the FCAI web site or contact your vehicle’s manufacturer to determine if there are any compatibility issues with particular makes and models. Myth 4. Ethanol always reduces fuel economy. 10% ethanol petrols, or E10 fuels, are known to result in a slight reduction in fuel economy in comparison to the same base fuel without the ethanol content. It has been documented that there is an approximate loss of 3.5% economy for E10 fuels and 1.5% for E5 fuels. Economy losses of this size are difficult to detect under typical driving conditions due to the impact on economy of other factors such as tyre pressure, driving style and driving situation (city vs. freeway driving). My personal experience has been that I found the 350 SB in my ski boat which was higher compression 10:1 than standard actually ran better and was more fuel efficient than if I ran standard unleaded. Our octane numbers are different to yours in the US. Normal unleaded is rated 91 octane and E10 is normally 94-95 octane. Our premium unleaded is 98 octane. I found if I went back to standard unleaded the boat would ping and I would need to reduce the static advance. |
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If you're going through hell, keep going
89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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Lewy, what about build up of varnish in the system over the years? will this effect any of it and if it does or doesnt what should one do?
I really havnt heard of any problems with ethanol, just trying to be the advocate |
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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lewy2001
Grand Poobah Joined: March-19-2008 Location: NSW Australia Status: Offline Points: 2234 |
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Eric I think this info I got from a E85 site here in Aus has a good explaination of this:-
"Gasoline contains olefins and waxy paraffin like compounds. Fuel vendors add detergents to try and keep these in suspension but there is a tendency for them to deposit onto the surfaces of your fuel system. Over time, the inside of your fuel tank can become lined with a mixture of these compounds. Ethanol is very good at mobilizing these deposits and a few tank fulls of E85 will do a good job of cleaning them from your fuel system. They burn well, especially when mixed with ethanol, and will not harm your vehicle to be removed from your fuel system in this manner. The trouble is that these waxy compounds may also have been securing sediments to the bottom of your fuel tank. When these sediments are no longer secured, they will find themselves picked up by the fuel pump and into the fuel filter where they will start to obstruct the flow of fuel. This problem is most common when budget fuels have been used over a long period of time but most fuel filters are relatively easy to change. If you think you are a likely candidate for this issue, we recommend using your first few tankfuls and then changing the fuel filter as a preventative maintenance item rather than experiencing a problem when you are in a remote area." |
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If you're going through hell, keep going
89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
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horkn
Platinum Member Joined: September-10-2007 Location: Cedarburg, Wi Status: Offline Points: 1511 |
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You can most certainly run the 10% ethanol and only 87 octane and cause no issues or harm to your boat.
In Canada, most if not all areas started to get only 10% ehtanol blended fuel this past winter. We have been using it here in the Milwaukee area for around 10 years, if not more. You won't have any issues, but you might notice a little more fuel consumption that with non ethanol enhanced fuels. |
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78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior
GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
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adamt
Gold Member Joined: July-18-2007 Location: Orlando, FL Status: Offline Points: 927 |
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All I know is my (not that long ago) 17-18 mpg vehicle is lucky to get 15 mpg lately!!! I say leave the corn for the cattle!!! |
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-Adam
1973 Skier |
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Booty
Groupie Joined: July-30-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 46 |
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Adamt , I agree with you! Have you gone to the store to buy corn products Lately. 50-60 cents an ear for corn come on get outa town! I also read an artical that the United States picked the wrong crop for ethanol yield. That sugar cane produces more ethanol than corn. I think it is Argentina uses sugar cane for ethanol and has done so since the 70's and that country is oil independent from the grip of OPEC. ITs all politics though.
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Booty
82,2001 82,2001 |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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Its brazil and cane produces i believe 3 times the amount from cane per pound compared to corn
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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Here in Iowa, ethanol is a boon - attributable soley to the government mandate. They have built an ethanol plant in just about every county, some have 2. Could be a bunch of white elephants if the Feds change the rules down the road . . .
Thanks guys for supporting Iowa with your fuel dollars! |
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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adamt
Gold Member Joined: July-18-2007 Location: Orlando, FL Status: Offline Points: 927 |
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I've heard it said that basically anything that grows (organic) can be made into Ethanol, why the Government, in all their wisdom, picked corn I'll never know. The talk here in Fl a couple of years ago seaweed. There's a guy here locally who has an algae farm who says he's making diesel fuel from it. The advantage over corn is that he's getting a dozen harvests a year because the algae grows like nuts in this climate. I personally don't think corn was the wisest decision, I think a shortage in corn (ie greater demand) is going to have a bigger ripple effect in the USA than expected. |
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-Adam
1973 Skier |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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now if you were a corn farmer would you want that to happen, there is demand problem with gas now and all that does is drive up the price.....or is there?
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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[QUOTE=adamt]
I've heard it said that basically anything that grows (organic) can be made into Ethanol,[QUOTE] That is celulos(sp) based production and that is still being developed. Cane suger and Corn are the most popular media used currently. new stuff |
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Booty
Groupie Joined: July-30-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 46 |
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I was involved in the Last effort, the plant I worked for was transformed into a 663 millon dollar MTBE plant Was started by Tenneco Oil Co then during construction sold to Enron we ran for about 12 years. In the houston area we have been dealing with reformulated gas since 1992. The next big thing is akylates and Iso octane for fuel inhancement. I guess the nautique can run on just about anything, be carefull mtbe will destroy rubber parts and gaskets, OOOOh! look out ethanol will destroy rubber parts and gaskets. I used to get a quart " sample" of methanol and pour into the tank just to get rid of any condensate that may have collected. It all ran good. so whatever is next we will buy it and use it.
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Booty
82,2001 82,2001 |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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its the same old *************** with gambling in Ohio, the activists which are on Windsors and Detroits payroll are picketing for no gambling in Ohio and it keeps thier states funded, its always about the almighty dollar
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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79Tique
Senior Member Joined: September-04-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 380 |
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I know from extensive biodiesel use that the ethanol does clean "stuff" out of older fuel tanks. Usually all that happens is a clogged fuel filter. On one vehicle some of the junk made it through the filter and gummed up an injection pump.
Also small amounts of ethanol will dissolve rubber gaskets/seals on some older fuel system parts. This can cause leaks and we all know how dangerous that is on inboard boats. In my experience any fuel system components sold in the last 5 years have seals that are safe with ethanol. If you have a boat older than 1990's you should watch your fuel system for leaks just to be safe. Admittedly I don't have as much experience with ethanol in gasoline, but I operate a fleet of diesel vehicles that all run on various concentrations of biodiesel. All of the pre-1990's vehicles developed some easily fixed leaks after a few months on the biodiesel. B-20 diesel is 20% biodiesel 80% petro-diesel. Biodiesel is about 30% ethanol so B-20 should be less that 10% ethanol and it will cause leaks on older fuel systems if not updated. |
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Work to live, not live to work.
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mtguy
Senior Member Joined: August-04-2008 Location: Priest Lake, ID Status: Offline Points: 165 |
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Wow, lots of posts for my original question. So, I think I fixed my surging issue. After cleaning the IAC I still had problems. While going through a list of possibilities, I noticed an in-line fuel filter. I changed it and now I have my old boat back! I probably should have looked at this first, but I couldn't see it without taking off engine cover and floor boards. My guess is the ethanol busted some crud loose and was caught in filter. Thanks all. I found the whole ethanol conversation interesting. The second generation ethanol as they call it, using switch grass and corn husks and the like is a couple of years down the pipeline from my reading on the subject. It will be a better use of energy and certainly better than using food stock to fill our tanks.
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gigem75
Senior Member Joined: November-12-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 239 |
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if you can eat it you shouldn't make fuel out of it.
Anyone hear of small 2 strokes wearing out prematurely from using ethanol containing gasoline? Walmart has the cheapest gas but the most ethanol, what you save in price is given back in reduced milage. I'm sticking with Shell or Chevron. |
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horkn
Platinum Member Joined: September-10-2007 Location: Cedarburg, Wi Status: Offline Points: 1511 |
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And thanks to all the ethanol plants, the company I work for has several millions of $$ more in sales. Yes, ethanol can be made from pretty much anything organic, the algae is probably the best source. Corn was not the best idea becasue it drove prices of a food that we and our livestock eat. Algae, well, that feeds neither us nor livestock. Unless you count what, nori for sushi? LOL |
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78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior
GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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why cant we use coal and turn it into a fuel? it started out as trees and plants, it seems like some of the process of turning it into a burnable has been eliminated already
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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OM45GE
Senior Member Joined: September-07-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 109 |
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There are processes to turn coal into both fuel (gasoline and Diesel) as well as fuel quality gasses. The Germans did it a lot during WW II becuase they didn't have enough oil but did have pleanty of coal.
The problem with most of them as I understand it is they they take so much energy that they're not worth it. I seem to remember that it actually took more energy for the conversion than the coal contained, but may be mistaken. It was definitely so expensive that it wasn't cost effective. That may not be true financially now that oil is so expensive. |
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1989 SN 2001
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