A 351w (stroker?) from scratch... |
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RainDog
Platinum Member Joined: February-21-2007 Location: Mke/Grn Lake WI Status: Offline Points: 1387 |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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Kinda wishing I didnt convert my big wooden box engine cover to an engine/jetski workstand otherwise I would have the option of dumping my 302 back in the boat this evening and not messing with this engine, since I dont have that option I will have to look for whats broken in this setup.
Seems like I have a small knock, suppose it could be engine or trans, find out soon enough after work, figure I will start with new plugs and hope for the best a week later wouldnt be a bad time of year for it to be broken. |
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75 Tique
Grand Poobah Joined: August-12-2004 Location: Seven Lakes, NC Status: Offline Points: 6121 |
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That stinks Joe...Hopefully its minor and you can get it right in time for LG. Was looking forward to seeing your boat. Good luck!!
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_____________
“So, how was your weekend?” “Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.” |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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I think its going up even if its just a paper weight.
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21169 |
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Wow, I sure hope its something minor. Ive got my fingers crossed for you, Joe!
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Joe, Good luck finding the problem. I too am hoping it's a minor one. Too bad it happened so close to the reunion but I do know you do work late into the day/morning and under pressure well!!
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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I could be overreacting, but I can tell you a boat and a prop have never had as little fun together as these two. It did run 4500 rpm and about 48-49 mph, which isnt rediculously bad but it never sounded right even after idling out the channel and on the way back she coughed pretty hard under accelleration so I pulled back and headed back at about 2k rpm went about a mile and she pulled back and nearly died heading into the channell. She idled back in not sounding right and then after I was safely back and restarted it with the cover open it sounded like a light rhytmic knock of some sort and since it was pitch black out I shut her down and went back to the shop tail between my legs.
As of now I can spin the prop with my hands, literally spin it, will freewheel and stay spinning a few turns. The engine cranks easy with it the ignition wire pulled, and with the plugs out (which again were mostly completely carbon covered) the engine turns smooth and fast. Best case scenario in my head I messed up the plugs enough a couple cylinders werent firing and I completely overreacted. Second best scenario I fragged the damper plate under hard accelleration with at 17 inch prop, which is more pitch than typically what is run on this setup, Third best case I cracked something (drum) in the transmission due to the same thing, Fourth scenario the extra load on the engine lead to some detonation or lean condition which caused something like a bent rod or hole in a piston Temp and oil pressure were normal the whole ride. I suppose I also could have jumped another gear on the dist but I think that less likely and timing light will rule that out quick. |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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not sure on the lean part of this but definitly timing related. I know when I was messing with props right after my rebuild depending on the which prop was on it, it would ping on the top end, but your's I'm not sure with it runing bad at idle too but the plugs might be that issue, guess if it started and idled right at first before the run then ran bad at idle after words then that would make since, but not from the get go. That sounds gear related and given the past issue might be wise to pull it and look at the wear even if the timing is ok. |
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quinner
Grand Poobah Joined: October-12-2005 Location: Unknown Status: Offline Points: 5828 |
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Fifth Case Scenario:
Loose nut behind the wheel! Dang Joe, hope it's something simple, Good Luck! |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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Shoot Quinner if this thing can't handle one loose nut behind the wheel it sure as hell wasn't going to make it through a ccfan reunion.
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GottaSki
Grand Poobah Joined: April-21-2005 Location: NE CT Status: Offline Points: 3357 |
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BTW Joe what final advance were you using?
302's like around 38, 351 like around 36, I imagine yours would like around 33-34 due to the longer stroke/geometry and slightly higher compression. Hope its something minor. |
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
River Rat to Mole |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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I was around 34.5 which was good with the previous prop although on the high end I what I have been running with this engine th previous year, I of course thought about lowering it with the new prop and then like a kid in candy store dove right in, never did year any knocking but maybe when it was a little warmer? I am thinking thats the most likely scenario, even still with a completely forged rotating assmembly it should have taken a little abuse and this didnt get much if any.
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75 stang
Senior Member Joined: August-11-2008 Location: northwest ohio Status: Offline Points: 475 |
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Are'nt you supposed to retard the timing a bit with NOS like a supercharger? seems like I remember reading that somewhere... Or use a timing control with it for under load situations?
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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Yep you definitely need to retard the timing depending on how much NOS you run, I would have however I have never run the NOS was going to get the bottle filled and installed tonight, but suddenly that seems superflous. |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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Twas a miracle healing, details to follow...
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critter
Platinum Member Joined: January-11-2008 Location: New Hill, NC Status: Offline Points: 1227 |
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All Right...
All this positive support helps.. Looking forward to the details. |
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1980 Ski Nautique
1966 Barracuda |
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Waterdog
Grand Poobah Joined: April-27-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2020 |
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I'd be surprized if it's the long block sounds like something "secondary". A little or a lot I know you'll get it fixed !
Good Luck ! |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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Well heres the story, got out of work brought it to my house since I dont have water at the shop to run it. Bringing my boat to the house brings the neighbors out as my boats are either in the water or the shop never at the house, so I change the plugs, which are all basically covered with carbon as previously described. My clear dist cap is looking a little more cracked than usual so I get the blue one off the 302 in the shop, I did not pull the dist because the up and down play was about twenty thou and there was no discernable lash in the gear. So I turn on the water and start it up. Timing is right where I left it at about ten and a half initial and sure enough this thing has a serious knock.
Everyone agrees knock, sounds like it is coming from the bottom. I try to convince the crowd, a few of which actually know thier way around engines, that its more likely i pushed the trans or damper past its limits than the engine but no one is buying it. Group agreement is that its a darn pretty engine but needs to come out and its a damn shame.. I agree and shut it down. I stare at it about another twenty minutes not running going over scenarios in my mind that all lead to me tearing down over the winter and not skiing the next month and a half. Most of the crowd has dispersed except the neighbors we really like and my dad. I decide that although it definitely needs to come apart I better come to that conclusion while it is running so I dont second guess later so I tell my dad to run the water and I start it back up. Still making a knock like a son of a gun but I walk around trying to make it get louder (earlier I had removed every spark plug wire in turn trying to isolate it to a cylinder, all I did was isolate what it feels like to catch 50000 volts by pulling the wrong end of the boot) I crawl under and around the engine trying to feel a spot where the noise is stronger.. to no avail. Eventually one neighbor says what did you do it got quieter, I had done nothing but put my hand on the block to feel for vibrations, now I stand back up its getting to be that its not every cycle anymore, its missing maybe one of eight then starting again. I decide hell its not getting worse maybe it will get better, another ten minutes or so and its up to temp and the noise is just a faint rememberence, another five and this sounds like a great running engine. Dare we rev it a few times (reving it earlier meant the noise was louder with increased frequency) this time the only consequence of the revving is the neighbors house gets wet, the engine sounds sweet. So we start to look at each other and confirm that it really was knocking violently a half hour ago and now not so much... nothing to do but accept the miracle and go for a lake test. I didnt really work it out but she ran smooth and happy and she broke fifty, explanation for all this.... All I have is the excessive carbon from the overpropping got a valve stuck, exhaust probably and that it finally kinda broke loose after the engine was warmed up. I can tell you I didnt put that prop back on it, nor am I planning to push this boat in any way before I get my backup cc on the water. Nothing like being cc less the day before a reunion to make you think that life wasnt so bad when your boat was really pretty, had a nice stereo, pulled the heck out of skiers boarders and the like, but could only manage fifty one or so. Well thats it for me till after the reunion, those going see you soon, those who cant make it, see you next year... |
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critter
Platinum Member Joined: January-11-2008 Location: New Hill, NC Status: Offline Points: 1227 |
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Now thats a good ending to a good story...
Glad to hear that things are sounding better. Have a great time in your boat on Lake George.. |
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1980 Ski Nautique
1966 Barracuda |
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75 Tique
Grand Poobah Joined: August-12-2004 Location: Seven Lakes, NC Status: Offline Points: 6121 |
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We'll see you and your smooth runnin' fire breather on Friday.
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_____________
“So, how was your weekend?” “Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.” |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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Well there were a few questions before about how she felt and sounded without the foam, without the wood, and what not and I hadnt really fully tested it, so I didnt comment too much.
Now I just beat the heck out of it in some serious boat wave conditions on Lake George for a few days, and I will say I am happy with it. There were a few hairy moments in serious (multi hundred passenger paddle boats) waves where I was wondering about the tower with weight of the speakers but basically I banged though almost every imaginable condition often at 50 and the boat is solid. Took plenty of extended runs in chop at excessive speed and while not ideal for passengers it was acceptable, just got to make sure people know to hold on. So the foam, I dont miss it... |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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Finally remembered to bring a camera to take some updated diary pics of the boat in its finished state and its natural environment last night, here is some of the overflow...
and one from LG to show the speakers before I took them down for the fall.. |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21169 |
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So thats what the floor looks like?
You did a beautiful job, Joe. Nice pics too. |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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Yeah, I gotta work on some board racks my floor does often disappear under the gear... |
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winniskier
Senior Member Joined: March-15-2008 Location: Gilford, NH Status: Offline Points: 193 |
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I'm lovin the 1983 NH license plate on the stern. Nice touch, great boat!
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4269 |
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Joe, I hadn't noticed that. Believe it or not, I have a NH plate on my '63 too! I've got to check the year tomorrow, might be the same 1983, I've never felt like taking it off. |
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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That license plate has always been a conversation starter, usually goes something like... "yep those are screws holding it in, at least it is blue, has the right year, and says boat on it so I guess it stays". Winneskier up above is the previous owner of this boat, so hes actually seen the plate before... Jim you should make it down to the NE reunion next year and check your old boat out its starting to look pretty decent. |
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RainDog
Platinum Member Joined: February-21-2007 Location: Mke/Grn Lake WI Status: Offline Points: 1387 |
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Typical understatement, Josephus. |
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Mojo
Grand Poobah Joined: December-06-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3106 |
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Joe,
Nicely done man... Ya got a new boat there. Enjoy the hard work !!! Moj' |
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05' SV211 TE
73' Martinique had:96' SNOB had:76' Nautique had 77 Tique |
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RainDog
Platinum Member Joined: February-21-2007 Location: Mke/Grn Lake WI Status: Offline Points: 1387 |
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"...down again..."
What happened? |
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