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Alignment...but now Thud, Thud

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    Posted: November-06-2008 at 11:34pm
I performed an alignment for the first time on the Southwind based on guidance from this site. Boat performs noticeably better - much less vibration and better response.

After the boat is good and warmed up I now hear a rapid thud, thud, thud when the boat is in gear that I don't hear until I've used the boat (screamed up and down the lake - good and warmed up). The noise is only present when in gear.

I reread alignment posts and am thinking that my shaft is riding too high towards the front of the strut (looks like it could possibly rub).

Based on readings, I'm trying to get the rubber hose off the log so that I can see better how the shaft is centered (or not) entering into the boat. The clamps for the hose are old and don't appear to be regular screws. I can't figure out how to turn them since they are more like dirty nubs than anything (no screw head). See picture:



Am I going down the right path?




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-06-2008 at 11:58pm
Looks like the bolt head is broken off. If it was me I would cut the clamp with a parting wheel. But maybe you can just pry it apart at the screw joint.

PS -In case this is unfamiliar to others, a parting wheel is an abrasive disc that cuts by the edge. Usually used with a air powered die grinder. Die grinders are not very expensive & I use mine quite often.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrCC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-07-2008 at 1:52am
Looks like your prop is part of the vibration problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-07-2008 at 8:23am
Court,
Yes, it's time for new hose clamps. Chris's idea of cutting them off is really the easy way. Even a little Dremel tool with the little friction blade (parting tool) will work.

From the picture, it does look like the shaft through the cutlass is angled up towards the bow. Your're getting the front of the shaft free to check is a step in the correct direction.

The "thud" - What's the fit like on the shaft coupling? How bad was the engine/shaft alignment? Looks to me like you may have a case of fretting. This is wear in the bore of the coupling caused by movement of the shaft inside the coupling. Misalignment is the cause. Did you put the stainless bolt in the coupling? looks like someone is trying to keep the shaft coupling tight after it loosened up or lost a set screw. The shaft to coupling needs to be a interference fit. (.000" to -.001")

Getting back to the Dremel, it's really the "homeowners" version of a die grinder. I never though very much of them as being a decent tool to have in the shop. Got one and found it to be very handy especially in tight spaces. Our tool makers here at the plant even have them!!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-07-2008 at 10:12am
Now that you took the load off of your prop shaft, the damper too has less load and this may be the noise you are hearing, a matter of fact I would bet on it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-07-2008 at 10:30am
Court,
I feel Eric's on to the "thud"!!!

Do check the coupling fit too.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-07-2008 at 10:51am
I second Eric's vote on the damper. As long as you are taking the drive line apart apart, pull the tranny & put a new damper in. They are less than $100, & will save your tranny in the long run (sorry to discourage business Eric).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boat dr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-07-2008 at 10:59am
I may not be the shapest tool in the shed , but does the strut look to be a bit "tweeked"?
It would be real hard to get a proper fit at the coupling with the components now being used.
Before we go talking dampners or tranny problems should we not addess the strut issue first?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-07-2008 at 11:42am
back from the dead....I was beginning to think...boat doctor who?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boat dr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-07-2008 at 11:53am
Been on a mission,trying to rat hole dollars before the season ends.
Have been on the site lurking, but nothing that needs my opinion nor the little knowledge I possess..Boat dr
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-07-2008 at 12:27pm
Strut does looked tweeked from that angle but it might be the curvature of the back of the strut that makes it look that way. We are going to need a dead on down the back shot to know for sure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-07-2008 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by eric lavine eric lavine wrote:

Now that you took the load off of your prop shaft, the damper too has less load and this may be the noise you are hearing, a matter of fact I would bet on it


So this means what? Why is the damper making noise and what is the fix?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-07-2008 at 4:23pm
it means the springs have no load and are loose possibly causing the thump, imagine with mis-alignment it is harder to turn the input shaft causing load to the plate because it is harder to turn (pressure) and when you bring it back into alignment that load pressure is removed allowing the springs loosen and thump or rattle the guts of the trans. the cure is replacing the damper including aligning the damper when installing, which means putting the trans on the bellhousing first and the bellhousing to the engine and then tightening the damper plate bolts last. by this method you are using the transmission as a means to center the plate onto the flywheel which eliminates side load of the input shaft
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-07-2008 at 4:56pm
^^^ I think that's what's up with Johnny's BFN. It is in storage now anyways. We can talk about it on Monday.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-07-2008 at 7:00pm
A Monday visit? come around lunch and you can buy   lol, I'll buy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jbear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-08-2008 at 3:31am
How long you gonna be in Cleveland HW?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-08-2008 at 11:21am
at least when Hollywood is within 2 miles of my shop he stops by....we'll meet someday John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CCFcourt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-08-2008 at 10:38pm
Okay, what I've taken away from this so far is:
1. I'm on the right track and need to go buy a dremel so I can get these hose clamps off and check on centering of the shaft. Is a Craftsman dremel a good one? (Sears is nearby)

2. The misalignment was very big before I moved the engine mounts. I didn't do anything with the set screws- the stainless steel was previous to me. I'll check on clearance of the shaft in the coupling and report back...

3. I'm too ignorant on transmission removal and damper plates. Is this a functional problem or just a 'sounds bad' problem? Can 1 man in his driveway with no lift remove a transmission or do I need to buy more tools/call reinforcements?

As always, thanks for the input so far.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-08-2008 at 10:54pm
Court,
The dampener isn't just a noise problem - it's the power transmission coupling between the engine and the trans! It must be looked at and for $100 put in a new one.

This is a easy project and doesn't require a hoist. Do a search for transmission removal and look for threads using two bottle jacks under the exhaust manifolds to tilt the aft end of the engine up.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-09-2008 at 10:12am
A well placed shot with a cold chisel will take care of those clamps for less $.

Your profile doesn't say much about you, but don't worry; the tranny removal isn't that difficult. Are you handy or all thumbs?


As Pete said, there are a number of good threads on this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hasbeenskier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-09-2008 at 11:16am
A word for the Dr. Your value to me is alo to include your vocabulary with the Southern humor. The well gone dry?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boat dr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-09-2008 at 2:18pm
BJ, the well is still at a level that will maintain all the BS that ya'll can sip or slurp.
Been real busy here of late.Trying to prepare for those long winter nights and the slack that comes at the shop as a result.
Having thoughts of putting the boat up for the year, but that will be after Jan.The winter here is So Brutal.....
Have tried several times to call but only got a MACHINE, I DO NOT TALK TO THEM....................Billy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-09-2008 at 5:02pm
Originally posted by boat dr boat dr wrote:

The winter here is So Brutal.....
.Billy/Karen


I'll bet Billy that the temps must get down to GL summer temps? Last weekend it was 70 out here,today it's 32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boat dr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-09-2008 at 7:29pm
Gary , the cold is here already......Highs today require me to wear jeans and long sleeves. I hope it warms up this week as I am not acclimated to this brutal winter temps.
BTW the highs here today were 65, back into the 80's by Thursday. I just love the Fall and the cool 80 degree temps that come with her...........Eat your heart out Snow Birds
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CCFcourt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-22-2008 at 9:01pm
I got those crappy hose clamps cut and pulled the stuffing box hose up to see the shaft coming out of the log. It turns out the shaft turns best in the strut when sitting right on the bottom of the log slightly pressed into it. I think this is the source of the problem; I have no margin between the shaft in the log (right on the bottom) and the shaft in the strut (coming out right at the top, going forward). My thinking is that I need to take the strut off to have it looked at or at least try reseating it. It looks like it had been previously glued in. I unscrewed the bolts, but the strut isn't budging.

Am I going down the right road and how in the world do I get the strut loose?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-22-2008 at 10:55pm
Court,
Considering the real bad engine alignment you found and now the strut problem, you probably have some rot issues with the stringers. Have we reviewed with you checking them? Have you done any checking on their condition?

You may be able to get more use out of the boat but not knowing the condition of the stringers it's hard to say how long. (no Guarantees) You however need to get the strut aligned for now. The strut isn't glued on but if it has ever been removed by a PO, it may be bedded to the hull with a adhesive sealant. Try gently tapping a wood chisel in under a corner. Get some heat on the strut with ether a propane torch or preferably a hot air gun. See if it will start to pull off with the heat. If no luck, it will need to be hot wire cut off. This is a couple feet nichrome or stainless (.030 MIG wire works well) wire strung between two wood handles and then using jumper cables connected to a car battery. The hot wire is pulled back and forth between the base of the strut and the hull "cutting" the adhesive sealant.

Dry fit the strut back on the boat with some stainless flat washers between it and the hull on the aft mounting bolts. This will bring the forward end of the shaft up. Rebed the strut with the washes and use 3M 5200 as a adhesive sealant. You should be putting in a new cutlass bearing before you remount the strut. You'll need it for aligning the strut to the shaft log.

BTW, I don't feel this is your "thud" problem. I think the guys a correct that you really need to check the damper plate out.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-23-2008 at 12:08pm
Court - You also should check your shaft for straightness. It will be a PIA to remove it for measuring but you already have a repair job going so there is no reason not to be thorough now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CCFcourt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-03-2008 at 12:05am
This lean must be a major part of my alignment difficulty...


Any idea if this can be fixed and where to bring it if so?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-03-2008 at 12:16am
CCFcourt - That looks exactly like mine did!

It can be straightened. Others will pipe in with a good source, I am sure. I just got a new one from SkiDim & will have my bent one straightened some day for a spare.

You might want to check the strut mounting area inside & out for hairline cracks. Mine had some. Now is the time to fix them.

Good Luck!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-03-2008 at 8:21am
Court,
Call up some of the prop repair shops in your area. They are experts with the bronze and most will straighten struts. It's really not that hard. A press, some heat and knowing how to set it up. They however can break if you're not real carefull.

What did you end up doing to get the strut off?


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