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tryan
Senior Member Joined: November-12-2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 345 |
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Posted: December-20-2003 at 11:59am |
the mustang and the nautique look excellent. i need to come over the hill and go for a ride.
a guy at the fl reunion said the mustang steers with the gunnal ( gunwhale/side ) of the boat running wot. have you ever experienced that? he said the side of the boat acts as a rudder, so they started putting a relief in the hull on the sides. i think the '2001' hull and later models have them. |
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SS-201
Senior Member Joined: October-20-2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 105 |
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Now that boat has a serious problem, be rest assured it was never built to perform that way. Whomever, should get the hull terminolgy straight and not make this into a fairytale.
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SS 201
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tryan
Senior Member Joined: November-12-2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 345 |
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sorry bill, i didn't mean to blow smoke up anyones skirt.lol. the guy had the blue mustang with the white c/10 chevy between us said it happened one time while he was going wide open. his kids might have slipped in some ballast while dad wasn't looking and overloaded it or the ol' ice bag stuck to the rudder trick.
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reidp
Platinum Member Joined: December-06-2003 Location: Mooresville, NC Status: Offline Points: 1804 |
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I've got a very quick '70 Mustang and was curious about the steering with the gunwale question. I think I know what he was referring to in that if you run some of these boats quite fast (45-55 mph) upon harder deceleration many will tend to hook or catch the chine and nearly pull the wheel from your hands, veering quickly to one direction. According to Art at Southeast CC, it can have a bit to do with the rudder as it did in my case. Mine would do it both when running at high speed and when slowing down quickly. A newer (straight) rudder fixed that.
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tryan
Senior Member Joined: November-12-2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 345 |
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both of those boats look like they have been well preserved. how long have you had them?
how close are you to lake lure? it's just a little east of lake norman. |
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SS-201
Senior Member Joined: October-20-2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 105 |
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My two cents worth,
Rudder shaft wear certainley will have a bearing with the handling.The design of tow boat rudder are designed to pitch the bow down in turns. High speed rudders are of a wedge type work just the opposite. However in my opinion most of the propellers are too close to the rudder.High speed props should be of stainless to reduce blade flex and stretch. They need only to be the width of the prop puller away from the back of the strut. This puts the prop closer to the bottom and further from the rudder, also helps eliminates excess vibration. The rudder for higher speed should be deeper than the prop. Also when adding more serious power the diameter of the prop especially on the narrow hull should be less. The larger diameter under added torque and power will twist the hull on the chine. Noteing older boats ran Michigan props that had a 0 or less rake and pushed the nose down. The newer props run 5- 10 degrees positive rake keeping the bow up. The boat under full power should break the water at least behind the engine. To emphasize, prop size, I've driven displacement race boats 100 + MPH most of my adult life and have seen boats go upside down when a blade broke or a shaft broke and jammed the rudder, etc. When you add more power to boats that were not designed for, other considerations have to reconized. Just my two cents worth. |
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SS 201
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tryan
Senior Member Joined: November-12-2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 345 |
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hey bill, do you think a higher rake prop is better for our inboards or do you think it will make them porpoise at high speed with the older, lighter boats.
i bought a 12x12 michigan wheel last summer for the ski boat and she tends to porpoise more than with the old reworked slightly out of balance 13x13. (both nibral three blade props and the engine is aligned to .002 in the water with a double taper elberts shaft and new strut bushing.) i'll start investing in a few stainless steel screws after the torino is converted so all the props can be right hand. the acme 4 blades look like they have more a cleaver shaped blade. i have thought about adding a couple tracking fins to the bottom of the torino. do you think this would be a dumb on a 16 deep v-hull. everything other boat is quite sloppy after driving the ski boat. what size prop do you run with the bottle? |
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SS-201
Senior Member Joined: October-20-2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 105 |
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MY 2 cents and opinion.
Most boats when porposing usually need more pitch, when going down in diameter more pitch usually is needed, however there are exceptains. I use a menkens steel custon 3 blade, + 9 rake 12X16 and a 12X17 6 + rake cupped staiinless OJ 4 blade. The OJ custom stainless 4 blade is the smoothest, and fastest on nitrous. Stainless blade are better as they tend not to flex and stretch. More torque and hp require SS Blades. |
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SS 201
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reidp
Platinum Member Joined: December-06-2003 Location: Mooresville, NC Status: Offline Points: 1804 |
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Boy, did I fall into something good here. You guys appear to know quite a bit. I'll be carefull as to not ask too many dumb questions. In response to tryan's question about my 70 Must and 68 Naut, I've had the Mustang since 97 and the Nautique just 2.5 years. Both came from Ohio. I believe the Nautique was a promo boat as it came originally with the 3 speedos. The boat was obviously garage kept for years and shows just over 1000 hrs on the clouded hr meter. Other than a small gouge on the bow stem, the hull is nearly flawless with only one very small and un-noticable stress crack on the deck. These Nautiques up thru '69 had the painted wooden spray rail, which in this case needs repainting. The Mustang on the other hand, has its share of dings. We are about 1-1/2 hours east of Lake Lure as you asked. We have several more boats which will make it on the site soon, including a '71 promo Nautique (the yellow hull) undergoing a `resto, and two '67 Nautiques being reworked, plus a near perfect '73 Mustang and very nice '72 Skier. Come on over. Only about 4 hours from you I believe.
Props and what I've discovered: I have and will waste (depends on who you ask) countless hours trying to get that extra MPH out of these boats. On the modified engine Mustang I've tried Michigan/Federals in 12x13 (5500 rpm, lost 1 mph, 12x14 (5200, best top mph), 12x15 (4900 rpm, lost 1 mph). I'm currently running an OJ 12x13 which matches the performance numbers of the 12x14 Fed exactly. No props show any affect either way on porpoising as this boat always keeps the nose down too low. Adding a large body in the rear seat will always lift the nose and add at least 1-2 mph to the top in this case. This hull vintage Mustang thru '70, along with some other models, obviously have more than ample hook in the bottom to keep the bow down. According to Art at Southeast CC again, the only way to combat that is to grind a rocker in the bottom near the transom. Tried it on another and it worked. Another story........ |
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SS-201
Senior Member Joined: October-20-2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 105 |
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That' true, Why ask if you already know the answers.
We could debate this forever, However I won't, go with your best instinct. When that boat was built is was meant to pull skiers with the bow down. However if you have added all this power in the boat. With all the orginal hardware as is,you can and will lift the transom and will push the bow down right on the spray rail. Your analogy on prop changes make no sense to me, 600 RPM differential should be 5-6 MPH. My 1981 stock Ski Nautique ran 4800 RPM on a 13X13, 48 MPH on the radar. To turn more pitch for more RPM you need more power not a prop change. My advice to you on props is call Eric Johnson and buy from someone that will work with you. He will go the extra mile. There is a prop formula to follow, might make it easier. Good luck with your endeavor. |
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SS 201
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tryan
Senior Member Joined: November-12-2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 345 |
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i can't hold a candle to bill's wealth of knowledge and experience. i like being on the learning curve.
is ecic at oj props? a little aft rake to bring the bow and speed up? there are two local prop shops here. at wes's, grandma can weld, grind and hammer with the best of them and east tn prop gives you a funny look when you set an inboard prop down on the counter. my brother used to run a progressive pitch on the donzi in the prop shoot outs, but he quit when he sold the 18 and got a 22. i still get a couple gray hairs every time i take a ride with him. reid. seven boats? that's like your own personal museum. my wife thought i was crazy with three. i will definitly venture your way to see the collection. you guys have a safe and merry x-mas. |
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reidp
Platinum Member Joined: December-06-2003 Location: Mooresville, NC Status: Offline Points: 1804 |
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Merry Christmas All! The presents are all open and Santa brought me a 1966 Correct Craft Brochure. I'll send some pictures to post from it asap.
Back to the discussion of speed, rpm, and prop sizes, would it be possible to start a new topic regarding this. Can Keith move these last couple of messages pertaining to this? I certainly don't know how to. Maybe some clarification is needed on the prop issue I was referring to. Indeed, if you picked up 600 rpm you would expect 5-6 or more mph, assuming this increase in rpm was with the same prop size. This particular 16' Mustang with original 210 HP 302 would only run 46 mph at 4400 rpm with the 12x14 prop. Engine/hp enhancements brought the rpm up about 800 rpm and added 10 mph to the top speed, with that SAME 12x14 prop. The goal was then to see if alternative prop sizes, going up and down in pitch and obviously affecting rpm, would increase boat speed. It turned out that the original Federal 12x14 produced the best speed. The combinations and theory are similar to changes in rear axle ratios in a car. I feel trial and error is the best means to arrive at the right prop package, though I've seen very few instances where a prop other than the factory original will significantly increase speed if at all. You can indeed go down in pitch and get a better hole shot and pull, but your top speed rpms are gonna typically go up +/- 300 rpms per inch of pitch removed and will have you turning the engine out of it recommended max or power band, and I doubt any more speed. Going up in pitch will detract from your pulling power and the engine will not generally be able to turn to its recommended rpm max, putting undo stress on the engine, and typically lowering top speed. As for rudders, Bill would you expect a wedge rudder to run faster than a ski type or just handle differently? This Mustang, as mentioned previously, can scare unsuspecting drivers when slowing down quickly, the way it grabs the starboard chine and pitches. Don't know if that's inherent in this hull or still a rudder problem/issue. Anyone else have or seen this same problem? -Happy Holiday Boating |
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SS-201
Senior Member Joined: October-20-2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 105 |
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We are going in circles here,
No, a wedge rudder will not help your problem.I hope you fix, whatever, before it hurts someone. |
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SS 201
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Keith
Admin Group Owner / Operator of CorrectCraftFan.com Joined: October-20-2003 Location: Pepperell, MA Status: Offline Points: 1917 |
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