Winterizing Question |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21169 |
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You seem confused. Let me try to clarify: Draining block = SAFE practice Not draining block = RISKY practice Regardless of whether or not you backfill with antifreeze, you NEED to drain the water out first. Otherwise you dont know how much water vs. antifreeze you have in the block, and you risk it cracking. See Bruce's (Riley) example above. |
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WhiteLakeSkier
Senior Member Joined: July-03-2009 Location: White Lake, NY Status: Offline Points: 197 |
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why would a marina use the risky practice? why would people begin to use af if it is more risky? we have winterized thousands of boats for a decade or so using af, no cracked blocks. af is not oil, it will mix when put with water. water is a solvent, no way around it.
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13513 |
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Some marinas obviously have risky winterization practices, and dense employees...
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WhiteLakeSkier
Senior Member Joined: July-03-2009 Location: White Lake, NY Status: Offline Points: 197 |
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there is no time to drain a couple hundred engines in less than a month, especially since it is impossible to know if all of the water has drained out of each engine.
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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WhiteLake, I would love to comment on your work ethics, but best for me to stay out of the conversation. Better yet is to keep my boat out of your shop.........Boat dr
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13513 |
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But it's not impossible to know if a thermostat is open and what protection your antifreeze cocktail provides... |
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WakeSlayer
Grand Poobah Joined: March-15-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2138 |
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I just winterized this same model the other day. You are good to go. I would not worry a hole lot about the ballast tanks. The aerator pumps should drain. If you are worried, pull a hose off the pickup and blow moderately compressed air through the line. Your only risk is the pumps and I doubt anything would happen. If it did, then you would have to replace the pumps and it would give you a reason to install ballast puppies. Not the worst downside I have ever heard of. Back to today's scheduled debate. |
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Mike N
1968 Mustang |
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GottaSki
Grand Poobah Joined: April-21-2005 Location: NE CT Status: Offline Points: 3357 |
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Ya, if i were paying that much and found out they were winterizing that way (no drain), I'd go supernova on them.
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
River Rat to Mole |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21169 |
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As you said, draining takes longer in some cases- so some marinas apparently take shortcuts, as you can attest to. That doesnt mean its the proper thing to do. I suspect that lots of people perform the RISKY practice of backfilling only (no draining) because they heard from someone that it was OK to do. We try to prevent the spread of misinformation on CCF, and thats why everyone is jumping all over you.
Again, Ill cite Bruce's example above. After 20 years of using your procedure, his buddy cracked his block. It shouldnt be a surprise! A/F may dilute with water, but the freezing point is greatly affected when it does so. Without knowing the ratio of water to A/F, you have no idea how much freeze protection you have. RV Antifreeze is not meant to be diluted at all! |
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WhiteLakeSkier
Senior Member Joined: July-03-2009 Location: White Lake, NY Status: Offline Points: 197 |
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why would the thermostat be closed if the engine is warm? it has to be cooled or it will go from warm to really hot. I dont know what work ethics have to do with this. i wish you all would focus on the actual thing being disagreed on, rather than acting like children. when you argue with children they do the same thing and start going off on other things. too much circular reasoning going on here
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13513 |
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The on-demand shower pumps can take a cold snap too. I do know that if the shower pump is off but if the outlet hose is left "open" water will still flow through and start to soak your floor. The only way to "winterize" the shower pump is to fill the line with A/F and pressurize it (blow) until it clicks on. I don't know much about ballast pumps, but I'm thinking they are pretty resiliant to a little frozen water as well. |
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WhiteLakeSkier
Senior Member Joined: July-03-2009 Location: White Lake, NY Status: Offline Points: 197 |
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we are not using rv anifreeze, it is not -50, but -100
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WhiteLakeSkier
Senior Member Joined: July-03-2009 Location: White Lake, NY Status: Offline Points: 197 |
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It is more than taking shortcuts. af has the best rack record for not being risky, and on top of that it is time effective. we dont use af just because it is quicker than draining
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13513 |
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You're totally not getting it, are you high?
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WakeSlayer
Grand Poobah Joined: March-15-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2138 |
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The ballast pumps in those boats are just attwood or rule bilge pumps.
HW, Interestingly, the shower I sold Johnny was winterized Oct 2005, and when ran it before I removed it this Spring, the antifreeze was still in it. I had never turned it on since the first Fall I had it. Are the newer ones different and do not have the valve plate? Just curious. Always DRAIN Mike |
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Mike N
1968 Mustang |
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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The thermostat opens or closes as the coolant temp rises or falls. This has little to do with block temp.If the block temp is 200 and you pour in 75 degree mixture the 'stat will slam closed till the mixture reached the opening temp of the thermostat,140 or so,,,,,,,,,,,DUH????? |
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WhiteLakeSkier
Senior Member Joined: July-03-2009 Location: White Lake, NY Status: Offline Points: 197 |
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that makes no sense. the water being that meets the thermostat is cold as well. the af is cold too. why would it close just when af hits it
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C-Bass
Platinum Member Joined: November-18-2008 Location: Columbus, IN Status: Offline Points: 1248 |
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Several comments....
1. Your punctuation may save you 2 seconds, but it also makes you look stupid. 2. Just because you work at a marina does not mean every process you're using is the best process. 3. Stop arguing about whether or not A/F is the big debate here...read the comments...it's about NOT draining the block. Quit going back and making it purely about A/F vs. no A/F. And on this...
I gotta disagree, I just did this whole process last weekend and it seriously took about 5 minutes for the block to drain out. While it was draining I was unhooking the RWP-Tstat hose preparing to fill with A/F. Whole process took about 15 minutes. |
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13513 |
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I've moved that box around like 6 times and haven't even peaked inside yet. It could be the same pump. When I sourced mine it was a Shurflo (in my BoM)? I'd think there is some "holding" volume in the pump that could retain fluid. Perhaps before I install it I'll run it out of the boat, then flip it upside down and see if anything drips out to find out if there is any kind of valve plate inside.
THEN do whatever you want with A/F to get the benefits it provides. |
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WhiteLakeSkier
Senior Member Joined: July-03-2009 Location: White Lake, NY Status: Offline Points: 197 |
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haha not capitalizing here is nothing compared to what some of the other people do. they use words as if they have never went to school. i am dissapointed i let myself get into these internet fights. they always are pointless and nobody will change their mind.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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White lake can't do 10 boats a day?? That's not even including Saturdays!!! Do they simply have their inexperienced laborers do it? You also don't know but I worked at a marina. We drained first and back filled per the engine marinizers recommendations. |
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WakeSlayer
Grand Poobah Joined: March-15-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2138 |
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How in the hell do you know that?
No, I meant the valve plate that get mounted under the gunnel. Main/Hot/Cold, that will never let water past it. Not one in the pump it self. I am sure the factory pump I have is the same as what you got. 12V RV pump. |
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Mike N
1968 Mustang |
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WakeSlayer
Grand Poobah Joined: March-15-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2138 |
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I think a halfway motivated 16 year old kid could be trained in an hour, given three wrenches, a nut driver, and a bucket and /or funnel, and handle the whole lot of boats after school hours. Problem solved for $8 per hour, $10 if he is fast.
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Mike N
1968 Mustang |
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WhiteLakeSkier
Senior Member Joined: July-03-2009 Location: White Lake, NY Status: Offline Points: 197 |
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no, we cannot do 10 boats a day. a lot more goes into putting boats away then an assembly line of winterizing. they all have to be washed, many have to be driven from all over the lakes. once they are winterized, a lot have to be dropped off at customers camps which are all over the place, or towed back to camps. their is not enough people or time to do many boats with all of the other things that need to be done.
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WhiteLakeSkier
Senior Member Joined: July-03-2009 Location: White Lake, NY Status: Offline Points: 197 |
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i know it is -100 because it is written label of the 55 gal. barrels! The winterizing is only handled by mechanics anyways. the other people and i change lug, change oil, and winterize the e-tecs.
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GottaSki
Grand Poobah Joined: April-21-2005 Location: NE CT Status: Offline Points: 3357 |
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Toasty, uhm is that a metric toasty or Fahrenheit? All this time feeling, could be draining.
I suppose one can generally assume when its not your boat and someone else will cover the repair.
Determined? How? what I miss inbetween assumming and toasty? With no load on the engine the tstat is just cracked at best, hoping the af dilutes the circulating water enough and consistantly is too reliant on luck and pure volume. Hundreds of boats times 5 gal each... Where is all this ethanol glycol going? The problem is the water, so just drain the water. If you like to add the af that way because you think it is slick, sure, but displacement is more effective than dilution. Hoping a five dollar spring opens to save a $2500 shortblock is, i don't have words. |
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
River Rat to Mole |
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C-Bass
Platinum Member Joined: November-18-2008 Location: Columbus, IN Status: Offline Points: 1248 |
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No offense to you personally, but that's exactly why I do as much of my own maintenance as humanly possible on everything I own. Dealers/marinas are typically more interested in the quantity of service, not the quality.
But I still do not think draining the block takes hardly any time what so ever. Especially for trained individuals who know what they're doing |
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scottb
Senior Member Joined: July-05-2006 Location: Bolingbrook, IL Status: Offline Points: 376 |
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How much longer until Spring?
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WhiteLakeSkier
Senior Member Joined: July-03-2009 Location: White Lake, NY Status: Offline Points: 197 |
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it is not ethylene glycol, but propylene glycol. much safer. we do not focus on quantity, we charge a high rate for things because of its quality. we usually do the best around, and certainly deal the best products
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WakeSlayer
Grand Poobah Joined: March-15-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2138 |
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It is not -100 if you don't drain the water first, dude. That is what everyone is saying. You are mixing 3 gallons of AF on top of 3 gallons of water. so is that -50? -25 ? -0- ?
Always DRAIN. |
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Mike N
1968 Mustang |
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