Windsor vs PCM |
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skicat2001
Platinum Member Joined: November-24-2008 Location: Ft. Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 1950 |
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Posted: January-28-2010 at 10:46pm |
Hello guys,
I have been pondering and wondering about the difference between Windsor motors and PCM's. I have a couple questions I guess I know you guys can answer. After seeing some of posts of people's boat's and having different motors, of either a PCM or a Windsor Ford engine. Did Nautique choose to spread the options out with different motors between these two or is that a peoples choice. I see different rigs, maybe be the same style boat and have different motors. And which one is better in power, and is the better motor. Is it just preference or is one better than the other? |
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1985 CC 2001-SOLD
Lee Michael Johnson |
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hotboat
Gold Member Joined: March-28-2009 Location: Conn Lake Pa Status: Offline Points: 814 |
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The Windsor is the motor and pcm indmar merc. etc. is the marinizer.
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Brian
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skicat2001
Platinum Member Joined: November-24-2008 Location: Ft. Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 1950 |
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oK, i gotcha.. Stupid question but had to ask. Can you find 390 Ford's anymore? Or they extinct for marine...
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1985 CC 2001-SOLD
Lee Michael Johnson |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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The 352/390 is a old big block of Ford. To my knoledge, they haven't been marinized since the late 60's by Interceptor. |
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skicat2001
Platinum Member Joined: November-24-2008 Location: Ft. Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 1950 |
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Wow! I wonderd if you could find one anymore.
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1985 CC 2001-SOLD
Lee Michael Johnson |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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You can find anything you want,you just have to think positive.Check out Alan's thread (about 3/4 the way down) Alan's Hemi.
I even found a original wheel for mine after looking for quite awhile. You just have to be patient, the things are out there. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Lee,
Gary's correct!! Alan's find is a great example. Not many 331 Hemi's around! Phil just picked up a 390 Interceptor for his 1st generation SN. I found the 1927 Universal Flexifour for my 1918. Are you looking for a 390? What for? If so, keep a lookout on this site. Ebay isn't a bad spot ether. |
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skicat2001
Platinum Member Joined: November-24-2008 Location: Ft. Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 1950 |
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Pete,
Yea I would like to do an upgrade from that 351 in a yr or so. I would think a 390 would fit in 85 2001.. Them old style ford motors are animals, and they last a long time. When I made the comment earlier about my dad's best friend, he had a 390 Ford Police Interceptor in his 1967 Century Resorter, and refer back then about them. Would I see a huge difference from the 351 I have know? Mine is healthy.. |
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1985 CC 2001-SOLD
Lee Michael Johnson |
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hotboat
Gold Member Joined: March-28-2009 Location: Conn Lake Pa Status: Offline Points: 814 |
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Theres may be some mixed opinions about the performance differences. This is off the subject but that makes me think I remember seeing a bfn with a 460 in it, was this an option or am I imagining it? anyone?
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Brian
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skicat2001
Platinum Member Joined: November-24-2008 Location: Ft. Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 1950 |
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a 460? damb.. The only thing I have seen is the 454 in Barefoots.. 460!! WOW!
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1985 CC 2001-SOLD
Lee Michael Johnson |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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You've got to really look at the HP/torque curves of different engines and compare them. You just can't say that a 390 is going to outperform a 351 especially when you need to factor in engine weight. Back in "the good old days", it was a common bragging right to claim someone had a "police interceptor" engine. Many would even claim that the Interceptor engine was marinized by the same company that did the engines for the police cars. Not true and goes along with the bragging rights of peoples claims to how fast their boat would go. Of course this was before the days of GPS!!! I'd have to say your dads friend was stretching the truth! Yes the Century's were fast compaired to other boats. They were a light weight hull (single plank) and they were notorious for putting big engines in. A engine built up for a police car is a poor choice for a marine application. Ideally, different torque/HP curves were used back then. I have the 390 Interceptor marine HP/torque curve at home and can post some specs later. |
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7954 |
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You may not gain a any hp or torque with a 390 over a 351, but if you've ever heard the exhaust tone of an old big block Ford like Reid Pinkham's Classic, the 351's just don't compare. If you want to be practical, go with the 351. If you want something that's unusual, classic and cool, 390.
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skicat2001
Platinum Member Joined: November-24-2008 Location: Ft. Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 1950 |
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Pete and Bruce,
Yea the ol 390 was a great motor, and I would like to see the specs on it. He had the 21ft Resorter which where heavy, fiberglass bottom with Mahogony wood on the sides.. Beautiful Boats, his took for every to jump out of the hole but once it plained, oooo wweee.. Bruce, if that is right on the 351 ford and 390 ford, I love the sound of a direct drive crusing, but If the 390 does not add more than I just assume stay with the 351 then.. |
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1985 CC 2001-SOLD
Lee Michael Johnson |
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skicat2001
Platinum Member Joined: November-24-2008 Location: Ft. Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 1950 |
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Pete,
If you have a 390 and maybe want to sell it though, I could take it off your hands if you want or if choose to do so. |
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1985 CC 2001-SOLD
Lee Michael Johnson |
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7954 |
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Lee, It will be interesting to see what Pete's charts indicate. A 351 is definately more practical. Until about a year ago, I didn't understand why anyone would want to fool around with these old obsolete engines. I really thought why not just drop a new crate Vortec or rebuilt 351 in and be done with it? But, I am learning that this old obsolete stuff is really cool. But, maybe not for you as your boat is probably your regular ride.
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skicat2001
Platinum Member Joined: November-24-2008 Location: Ft. Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 1950 |
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Yes sir Bruce,
I was raised ol school.. The old style engines by Windsar where cool, at least to me they are. I think V-Drive was the stupidest thing they ever came up with. My opionion though.. Love them old style big block motor.. |
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1985 CC 2001-SOLD
Lee Michael Johnson |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Lee,
Looking at the 390 HP/torque curve, as it was marinized by Interceptor, it shows a max HP of 260 at 4400 RPM. Torque max's out at 190 at about 2750 RPM. Sorry I don't have the specs on the 351 but I'm sure someone like Alan can chime in. Now, it would also be interesting to get some input from Reid who had the H/M boys do the job on his 390!!! |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21186 |
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Pete, 190? That cant be right. Im guessing either you mis-typed or were looking at the wrong scale for the Tq curve? Something with that many cubes should have at least 300ft-lb.
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7954 |
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Stock Interceptor 390s had from 260 hp to 300 hp, depending on the year and model.
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skicat2001
Platinum Member Joined: November-24-2008 Location: Ft. Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 1950 |
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Ok sounds good Pete, Thanks for those specs. If I can do some reasearch between the two and the 390 comes out better, I will start shopping.
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1985 CC 2001-SOLD
Lee Michael Johnson |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Tim,
The low torque surprised me as well! I too would have thought it would have been higher. I double checked the graph I have and the 190 is it??? |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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EDIT!!!!!!
Well, the graph I have is a photo copy and very hard to read. I took the magnifying glass to it. Tim, it's 390 Ft. Lbs. at about the 2750 RPM. |
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reidp
Platinum Member Joined: December-06-2003 Location: Mooresville, NC Status: Offline Points: 1804 |
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I doubt anyone's a bigger fan of the 390 or BBF than I am. Like Bruce stated though, I don't feel it's the best or most practical option for an engine upgrade in a later model boat, but more suited as a vintage-correct upgrade in an older boat. However, practicalilty hasn't always been the basis for many of the engine upgrades seen on this site. In your case Lee, I feel the more-increasing common family of 351 Windsor stroker engines in the 393 or 408 variety would prove to be a less expensive and more powerful option. We just ordered a 408 destined for a 1992 Excel in place of a 351, which will be installed in the next 8 weeks.
I believe Bruce likes the sound of our 390 mainly because it's a little louder from the higher 10.3 compression. But even with a cam upgrade, Edelbrock intake, and the higher compression, the Desktop Dyno only showed +/-330hp, up from the original 300 factory rated hp. A 351 stroker will surpass that with ease. But if you really like the classic looks of that FE Ford big block, they actually now sell valve cover adaptors for the 351 allowing the installation of the BBF wide/tall style covers. They're popular with the Cobra kit car guys searching for that original 427BBF look. They increase the width of the engine by about 2" but I doubt they'll fit with the standard center-rise exhausts. Food for thought. |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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i dont want to rain on your Ford parade Reid
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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i will though, the 460 engine was converted from a steam engine somewhere back in the old days, actually you do see alot of the BBF in jet boats.
Reid, im more of a ford fan now than i was 2 or 3 years ago |
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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reidp
Platinum Member Joined: December-06-2003 Location: Mooresville, NC Status: Offline Points: 1804 |
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Eric, Raining on my parade on this website is next to impossible as it's one of the very few remaining Ford strongholds. As for the 460 origins, you're slightly off as I have it on good authority that it was the basis for the original Nasa solid rocket booster engine.
Glad to see that your're at least tolerant these days. Along that same line, I never thought I'd never have a GM powered boat, but i've grown very fond of that 6.0. On top of that, in an even more surprising move, I just recenting purchased our first-ever GM work truck, a 2500 with what engine (?), a 6.0. |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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6.0's will go down in history, BTW when they shot that 460 into space they shouldve left it there lol, nice to hear from you
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7954 |
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I've become a Ford fan, too. Back in '92 when my buddy called me from NC to tell me he found this beautiful ski boat on Lake Lure for the right price, I was disappointed to learn that it had a rare PCM 351 rather than a common Merc 350. That engine didn't take long to win me over, but exposure to CCF really reeled me in. Now I prefer a Ford.
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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i still would put a bbc in an ole model A,lol i wouldnt touch a ford before this site, always Bowtie....now only if they would marinize one of those new 5.7 Hemis
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Speaking of the 460, didn't Chrysler marinize the Ford after they stopped production of their own BB???
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