It should be true

boat dr wrote: We can do what we please, not worry as to whom we harm ,have absolutely no consequences for our actions. Live and let Die so to speak, at that time we return to dirt from which we came.Boy what an idea, what a way to live. Full Speed Ahead & Damn The Torpedo's..............

No No No. This is one of the common view points said by Christians. I am not religious. I'm an atheist, have been for many years and it doesn't take a bible to get morals. First off, there are consequences for your actions it's called prison. How long do you think you will be around if you walk around punching people in the face? See, you think people are inherently bad I think people are inherently good. Just think about this.. what's better a person who needs to be threatened by hell in order to be "good" or someone who is just good for the sake of being good? God does not have to scare me into being a kind person by threatening to send me to hell for eternity.

But I have to ask one question Phil, what if you are incorrect and there is a God, and there is a Heaven and there is a Hell. Would you be so bold as to tell God that he ain't real?

I've kind of answered this one already. First of I would ask him why he made himself so hard to believe in. Then I would have some really choice words for someone who lets so much suffering, death, and destruction take place when he has the powers to stop it. I'm kind of wondering where he was again when the quake in Chile hit. Certainly there are innocent children who died. That is no way to treat someone.

Like prayer... To me, there is nothing worse than when I see professional athletes praying as if god is going to help them yet he continues to allow things like earthquakes take place. I always say, God didn't help the jews in the halocaust and he sure as hell isn't going to help you.

Phil,

I'm not sure I can rebut or truly answer some of the things you just posted, but I will share something with you that is the core of Christian belief. This will touch on the "being a good person" things you talk about, why God "allows bad things to happen" and what Christianity is about.

From the very beginning, God only wanted to have a relationship with us after He created us. That existed, at first. God also did not create us as robots, He gave us a free will. We sinned and seperated ourselves from God, essentially messing up the relationship. Sin has seperated us from God and made the relationship difficult. You'll noticed the Bible talks a lot about God's love and it also talks about His judgment. If you notice, whenever someone in the Bible strives to be close to God, through a real relationship, the loving portion is represented. Whenever man is being sinful, the judgmental side is represented. You will also find that every time sin is mentioned in the context of God's action or reaction, there is a very distinct impression that God is angry or hateful. This is because God hates sin. He hates it because he knows it ultimately destroys us and it damages our relationship with him.

I look at God as a father trying to have a relationship with his son. When things are going well, the relationship is strong. When your son misbehaves, the relationship is strained, usually because you have to discipline the son and teach him how to be on the right path. Imagine that as a teenager your son gets into drugs. The relationship becomes even more strained and you may even become angry about the situation in a way that makes your son think you are deserting him or judging him. In reality, you hate the drugs and the damage they are doing to his life and wish he would stop, but you know it is his choice and ultimately you cannot force him to live life a certain way. All you can do is sit back and be there for him when he needs you. As he continues with the drugs, more bad things happen to him.

Imagine if a person outside the situation said to you "I can't believe you are just sitting back and not doing anything to protect your son from all these bad things...what kind of father are you?"

When you say something like this...

phosphor wrote: Then I would have some really choice words for someone who lets so much suffering, death, and destruction take place when he has the powers to stop it. I'm kind of wondering where he was again when the quake in Chile hit. Certainly there are innocent children who died. That is no way to treat someone.

...it makes me think that maybe there isn't a complete understanding of what God is all about and wnants from us.

Think of it in the way I described...the father of a son abusing drugs. You might say "Yeah, but God has the power to control the situation." Ah, good point. If you had the power to get your son off drugs, would you exercise it? If so, would it really correct the problem and would your son have really learned how to do those sort of things on his own and appreciate you for teaching him or would he essentially become dependent on you for all things?

It is my belief that God wants us to not have to be dependent on Him for all things but that he also wants us to have a relationship with Him. We (humans) really messed that up in the early days trying to do "good works" but ignoring God in the process. If your son did all his chores and was a good kid, but never talked to you, hugged you, came to you for advice or showed he loved you, would you feel that was a good relationship?

can you guys please get a life.

As i said back in the first couple of pages in this forum no one is going to change the way phil thinks ,it seems to me something has happened in his life to make him this bitter and its a strong possibility that he was raised to believe this way,the best we as christians can hope for is that one day he will think back on the seeds that have been planted here in this topic and choose to open his heart to the truth my prayers are with him and all who choose to reject Gods eternal love and forgiveness.many of you have made very good and valid points and i have enjoyed reading it. but as far as trying to convince Phil there is a god i think its time to put this one to bed.

davee40 wrote: As i said back in the first couple of pages in this forum no one is going to change the way phil thinks ,it seems to me something has happened in his life to make him this bitter and its a strong possibility that he was raised to believe this way,the best we as christians can hope for is that one day he will think back on the seeds that have been planted here in this topic and choose to open his heart to the truth my prayers are with him and all who choose to reject Gods eternal love and forgiveness.many of you have made very good and valid points and i have enjoyed reading it. but as far as trying to convince Phil there is a god i think its time to put this one to bed.

Davee, Actually I was raised catholic completed my communion and all. It didn't take long for me to realize it was all bogus. I think it was around 4th grade. My mom was religious and she tried bringing me my brother and sister up Catholic. My dad, now he was a much smarter scholar and he new better. Which explains why I can remember going to Church on Sundays and my Dad not being there. My mom is no longer a religious person perhaps an agnostic at best.

Out of all the points I've made the only one that any of you have been able to remotely question is the point about dinosaurs because as someone stated God doesn't say what a "year" is. Grasping for straws in my opinion.

Also, to make a counter point of Okie's recent posting... You mention free will. Are earthquakes, huricanes, and tsunamis really free will? No, one might say Gods will.

open his heart to the truth

How can you even mention truth? This is another point I'm trying to make. You can't possibly know the truth. Why can't you just admit that your possibly wrong? Truth? Your basing truth on a book with zero evidence. You have faith and that is all you have. Faith is strong belief without evidence. Don't mix up truth and faith it's intellectually dishonest.

So, first things first. I was right about Christmas and you should not have been falling out of your chair laughing.

Do you believe Jesus existed?

Hard to say. No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus ever existed. No artifacts, works of carpentry, dwellings, or self-written manuscripts. All the accounts are hearsay.

Do you believe he was conceived in the Spring and subsequently was born somewhere near December?

Again don't know he was ever a real person.

I find it interesting that after everything I typed this is the only thing you latched on to.

That's because it's the only thing that I thought was worth commenting on. If there is a specific point that your looking for me to comment on then just let me know.

Like was asked earlier, what do you call the winter holiday you celebrate with your kids? What do you tell them the reason is?

Like was mentioned earlier, we celebrate Christmas and the winter solstice. We call it Christmas for traditional reasons only we probably should be calling it Saturnalia but Christmas is well embedded just about everywhere. And I tell them about the mythology of Jesus. I tell them where Christmas really comes from, have you told your kids yet? Some Christians even argue that Christmas should not be celebrated.

Well, if you were raised catholic, you know the answer to that. God gave us (mankind) the choice to walk with him, sinless, in paradise. We could have lived without bad things happening, like earthquakes, hurricanes and tsunamis had we chosen the right path. God allowed us to make the choice, though, and we made the wrong one.

OK. Would you agree that the hundreds of little 1 month old babies who have died from what I like to call "Natural Disasters" are innocent? If you agree then wouldn't you think it wrong of god to create these natural disasters and kill innocent children? Do you really think that if such a God existed he would allow this to happen? Do you not think that scientists know what causes things like hurricanes, earthquakes, and tsunamis? Because based on what your saying it's an act of god. I think just about every scientist would disagree with you.

davee40 wrote: Yoy seem to be stuck on the dinosaur thing ,as tim stated gods timing is not the same as our timing,and i personally believe that at once a time they did exist,Phil you seem to be an intelligent person and i think that no matter what you read or study you are so biased in your opinion that you see what you want to see.tell you what, try reading a book by William P Young titled The Shack.i think it would be an interesting read for you

I can't let comments like this go unanswered. Here I am the one who has been Catholic, been to Methodist and Luthern Churches A LOT, and continues to study several different religions. Then there is the (in this case) Christian. Won't question the bible, is taught to accept it as the word of God, throws out all the bad stuff in the scripture, interprets the bible however they like, and has no evidence of any of this stuff. But I'm the biased one? Again, your not being honest with yourself.

As for the book shack, I will read that book, even answer a quiz if you read the short book "Letter to a Christian Nation".

davee40 wrote: youve talked about you dont believe in anything that you cant see or touch ,do you tell your kids that the word love is not going to be used in your house because to the best of your knowledge it doesent nor has it ever existed because you have no proof of it.

No, love is just an affectionate feeling towards someone. Not sure I understand your point as I don't see how this relates to believing in a religion. Love does not make claims of miracles or that Jonah lived in the belly of a whale for 3 days.   

I have read and tried to understand this post and what it has to do with CCFan, not a clue.Phil is trying to convince Phil that God ain't real.That being said " ENOUGH ALREADY".....Next he will be on a soap box shouting that The Easter Bunny and The Tooth Fairy are also pagen rituals also.................Phil to you I say "Bah Humbug"

davee40 wrote: As i said back in the first couple of pages in this forum no one is going to change the way phil thinks ,it seems to me something has happened in his life to make him this bitter and its a strong possibility that he was raised to believe this way,the best we as christians can hope for is that one day he will think back on the seeds that have been planted here in this topic and choose to open his heart to the truth my prayers are with him and all who choose to reject Gods eternal love and forgiveness.many of you have made very good and valid points and i have enjoyed reading it. but as far as trying to convince Phil there is a god i think its time to put this one to bed.

    I agree its a moot point

Well stated reid and this has obviously been a popular thread the last i checked out of 17 members ther were over half viewing this with waiting anticipation

Phil,. Your American Skier, was possibly made a short distance from my house.Next you will tell me it is better than a Correct Craft. Then come back and say there really is no Easter Bunny and The Tooth Fairy did not put that dollar under the pillow......................The shrink told me there would be days like this.More sessions will help me cope with my inner feelings of betrayal...............Bad Mommy/Bad Daddy/Bad Teddy

While I have read some really interesting posts here, like Reid, I appreciate the fact that this is one rare, long winded thread with an age old argument that didn't come to blows, I'm sitting here wondering why ?? Why is it that after 5 pages with opposition so left and right, are you all bothering trying to convert one another??

Phil "doesn't believe". Not sure why it's so hard for the guys across the table to understand and accept it.. And I'm not saying that the thread should end, although taking up valuable band width with no resolve...

Anyway, believe what you want to believe in. That diveristy makes for a more interesting planet...

Oh, and for the record, I was devistated when the cash flow ran out after finding out the tooth fairy was mom....

Carry on gents..

Moj.

phospher wrote: The artifacts that have been found that refer to Jesus are fakes? Is that what you're trying to say? Can you please enlighten me to these artifacts? Perhaps I've missed the compelling artifacts.

The Ossuary of James is one. I'm sure you've heard of it by now. James' burial box with the inscription "James son of Joseph, Brother of Jesus". Of course, I'm sure you're probably on the bandwagon attempting to claim it to not be authentic or some sort of hoax.

Bottom line, there are writings and a few pieces of evidence that provide enough proof that Jesus existed. Ultimately, it's good enough for me.

phospher wrote: I don't view it as God causing it and don't understand why you do. The only thing that I can gather is that it fuels your reasoning for believing that He must not exist because if He did, and was loving like He was supposed to be, He wouldn't let those things happen. Let me ask you a question. If you watched a friend of yours go through the druggie example with his son, would you consider him to be an unloving father by letting his son make his own choices and deal with the consequences? But you certainly agree that God could stop it if he wanted too right? And that's kind of a loaded question. I certainly would try to stop my son. And if it was my daughter and she was pregnant I would try a heck of a lot harder. You see, I'm trying.. Did god try and prevent any disasters? Guess we'll never know for sure.

Very good point. Do you think God doesn't want or try to stop bad things from happening to us?

Go back to the example for a minute. Think about if your son or daughter continually resisted your attempts to stop the damage they were doing to themselves or the unborn child. At some point, no matter how hard you "try" you can't stop it. Someone that isn't aware of the efforts you put forth might ask the same of you that you are asking me regarding God, don't you think?

Eventually, you might even back off and stop trying if resisted enough. Do you think it is possible that is what we are seeing with the way God is reacting to our behaviors and decisions? If He just stepped in and prevented bad things from happening and controlled everything to our benefit, wouldn't that contradict the idea of giving us a free will?

As far as the Christmas discussion, I don't think you have proven anything about who is wrong or right. You're correct that the Bible doesn't specifically spell out the date Christ was born, but we know he was born around the time Christmas is now celebrated and the Bible does ellude to the fact that His birth should be something to celebrate. Although, the Bible spends a great deal more time looking at the death and resurrection as being something to celebrate.

The Ossuary of James is one. I'm sure you've heard of it by now. James' burial box with the inscription "James son of Joseph, Brother of Jesus". Of course, I'm sure you're probably on the bandwagon attempting to claim it to not be authentic or some sort of hoax. Bottom line, there are writings and a few pieces of evidence that provide enough proof that Jesus existed. Ultimately, it's good enough for me.

Yes, I recall hearing about the Ossuary. Did you ever hear what happend to the men who brought that artifact to public? I don't think they fared so well. A little research shows, "By 2008, in what has been termed "one of the biggest forgery scandals ever in the history of archaeology", an Egyptian, Samah Shoukri Ghatas, had confessed to manufacturing the many items for Oded Golan (the guy who had this Ossuary).

Hardly reputable evidence in my book.

Very good point. Do you think God doesn't want or try to stop bad things from happening to us?

I don't think god has a say so because I don't think there is a God.

I get your point about the whole drug and parenting thing but I'm not all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful so I think your comparing apples to oranges here.

Do you think it is possible that is what we are seeing with the way God is reacting to our behaviors and decisions?

Possible yes, probable no.

He just stepped in and prevented bad things from happening and controlled everything to our benefit, wouldn't that contradict the idea of giving us a free will?

I'm confused. Why do Christians pray then? If god allows free will like you have described I don't understand why people waste so much time praying. He's not going to answer your prayers right? Seems like praying and free will are contradicting each other.

As far as the Christmas discussion, I don't think you have proven anything about who is wrong or right. You're correct that the Bible doesn't specifically spell out the date Christ was born, but we know he was born around the time Christmas is now celebrated and the Bible does ellude to the fact that His birth should be something to celebrate. Although, the Bible spends a great deal more time looking at the death and resurrection as being something to celebrate.

Grr, Did you not do any research on Saturnalia? Let me help you.




Was Jesus born on December 25?

"Was Jesus born on December 25? There is no evidence for this date. So then, who decided that Jesus' birth would be celebrated on that date? The early Christian church did not celebrate Jesus' birth. It wasn't until A.D. 440 that the church officially proclaimed December 25 as the birth of Christ. This was not based on any religious evidence but on a pagan feast. Saturnalia was a tradition inherited by the Roman pagans from an earlier Babylonian priesthood. December 25 was used as a celebration of the birthday of the sun god. It was observed near the winter solstice.

The apostles in the Bible predicted that some Christians would adopt pagan beliefs to enable them to make their religion more palatable to the pagans around them. Therefore, some scholars think the church chose the date of this pagan celebration to interest them in Christianity. The pagans were already used to celebrating on this date.

The Bible itself tells us that December 25 is an unlikely date for His birth. Palestine is very cold in December. It was much too cold to ask everyone to travel to the city of their fathers to register for taxes. Also the shepherds were in the fields (Luke 2:8-12). Shepherds were not in the fields in the winter time. They are in the fields early in March until early October. This would place Jesus' birth in the spring or early fall. It is also known that Jesus lived for 33.5 years and died at the feast of the Passover, which is at Easter time. He must therefore have been born six months the other side of Easter - making the date around the September/October time frames."


Care to reconsider on the Christmas discussion?

Guess we'll never know for sure. ah but your wrong one day you will know for sure

Consider the possibility that when you die that's it you die. You cease to exist in any form or fashion, life is over, you are not in heaven or hell nor are you reincarnated. Just gone like you never existed. The only ones who have any idea you existed are people you met while you were alive. Now with that in mind, I say, guess we'll never know.