Obamarama

and for the future, I never once believed the bullsht Bush was giving us about the wmd's in Iraq or ties to Al Qaeda...Sadaam kills his own people? do some reading on the tribes over in Africa,...thats the reason I voted the other way

you better call Pastor Jones.
Serbs? Croatia? even Turkey, Africa, are we just an audience on the killings over there. it ain't about the killings
BTW, the chemicals Sadaam used were supplied by Dow chemical, an American company

eric lavine wrote: you better call Pastor Jones. Serbs? Croatia? even Turkey, Africa, are we just an audience on the killings over there. it ain't about the killings BTW, the chemicals Sadaam used were supplied by Dow chemical, an American company

Eric,
We are boat guys. We do not need to snipe at each other. It sounds like you are at the "you better call Pastor Jones" stage of this conversation where we need to throw zingers at each other and I am not playing. If you want conversation, fine, but lumping me in with Pastor Jones is over the line. Remember, there are those of us who have a different perspective because we were over there when the events took place, and we have the scars and memories to prove it. You mention the Serbs, Croatia and Turkey and Africa. To my knowledge, as bad as those murders and genocides were, they were not using chemical weapons that could be turned over to Al Quaeda. Saddam had a history of that. The intel reports showed Iraqi contacts with Al Quaeda even though "after the fact" political fact finding reports downplayed those contacts, Bush is only a man, a human, and had to make a decision on whether he could allow a loose cannon like Saddam (who HAD killed tens of thousands of people with WMD)the ability to run loose in defiance of the only monitering agency (the UN) when we did not know where the next attack would come from.
Dow Chemical: In the 70's and 80's I know you remember something called the Cold War. The Soviets were attempting to gain real estate (as in whole countries) by the sword. The US was in a real dilema. We do not spread Democracy through the sword, but how do you stop Soviet gains? Do we sit around and watch communism spread and consolidate to the point that it is unstoppable and THEN we succumb? Or do we play spy vs spy and make covert deals with nations on the edge like Iraq? I don't know--again I am just a man--an old man at that! But we were in a detestable situation of trying to thwart communism because there is no doubt that the goal of Soviet and Chinese communism was to spread itself through any means. That equates to no ski boats for us (the simple working man) only for the political chosen. Yes, we made deals with Saddam during the cold war. The reason for that was that the Soviets had the very best WMD capability at the time. I have spent more time drilling in chemical suits than I want to admit to because of that threat. The Soviets were parading that threat. Any country that sided with us during the cold war was aware of that threat and asked for a deterrent from the US. We allowed Dow to sell the chemicals because it was part of the Soviet threat and the Iraqi deterrent was to have them as well. It helped the US to have an allied nation be part of the deterrence.
That allowed most Americans to go to school, college, go out in the business world mostly unaware of the Soviet threat. We had TVs, then VCRs, computers, cars, Burger King, dvds, CDs (and...world class ski boats!-CC's success was based on Cold War prosperity! While all this was going on, the boats we now revere were manufactured for leisure time provided by those back door deals!)etc, etc, while those under communist rule waited in line for 3 hours to get government bread.
The point is, you can not listen to "Bush lied people died" without knowing what was on the table. If you were president, what would you do? How would you like to have taken "the peaceful"(think Nevil Chamberlain) route, and then have a WMD attack on NYC? Or hometown Ohio? Is it at least in the bounds of reasonableness to concede that Bush had every reason to believe there were WMD in Iraq based on their past? I mean looking past all the leftist and conservative rhetoric on the matter, is it not concievable that Bush made his decision based on the information at hand and was not a lie? I ask all this in the utmost respect and if you need to answer by comparing me to Pastor Jones, save your breath. I have pulled too many bodies out of to many $hitholes around the world to be compared to that.
Tom

"Fathom the odd hypocrisy that Obama wants every citizen to prove they are insured, but people don't have to prove they are citizens".

~ Ben Stein

I wish Glenn Beck would run for President, cause that speech he put out in D.C over Labor Day was right in tune where the country is from, and where it needs to go.

2 sided works ok. Right now its one sided and screwed up, but the other shoe is gonna drop in November.

Eric, I could not disagree more with your analogy, when our founding founders gave us a country based on limited government,individual rights and freedoms they built a "warehouse" stock full of hardworking innovating individuals like you and I. We became the most prosperous nation in the world and its only super power in just two hundered years, something that had never been done before or since. I take offense to here someone say it is now empty. The only thing that changes is who runs the warehouse and what policys they follow. Some choose to reward those that produce and others like our current administration claim social justice and take from the producers and give it to those who do nothing. When we reward the producers we get so much wealth creation that everyone prospers. We get the richest poor in the world. They own cell phones and flat screens and instead of starving their biggest health problem is obesity. You can argue who deserves what all day long but the fact is when you punish those who produce it brings eveyone down. Currently unemployment is highest amoung minorities, where is thier justice? When did the economy really turn? look at october of 08, if my memory is correct unemployment was just over 6% and the stock market well over 10,000. Then fears of a Obama / biden victory took hold, and that is when it switched from bushes to Obamas economy. Bush yerly deficit was to high but Obama quadroppled it, let me say that again Obama quadroppled it. Obama did it. Then everyone with money started hoarding it. Stimulus packages were passed against public opinion and we all know we have to pay for them. Health care was rammed down our throats with the same impact. Obama and Biden had the farthest left voting records in the senate. THEY ARE RADICALS. We would be so far ahaed with McCain, but he is to far left for me. The ball you speak of is on a hill. it will always roll. You do not have to spend to make it move, just dont put road blocks in front of it.

Boy the mentality.... If you stand in the mirror, I always wonder what some people see. Never themselves, damb losers...

I am just going to sit here, drink a cold one, and watch some football...

My comment is directed at people who blame "Bush"!! Never the less, some of this economy downfall comes from Mr. Bill Clinton who started the downfall, not Bush Jr. or Sr.

There is no way that 50% of Americans are net positive tax payers now.

eric lavine wrote: why are the banks locked up tight now? and why is it not business as usual?

Seriously, you don't know?

Greg of course i know, fool me once....this time I would take the money and run lol
you gotta love the new Geico commercial, Abe Lincoln is the back ground and Mrs. Lincoln asks if she looks fat in the dress....he pondered, and gave her the truthful answer

eric lavine wrote: you guys work the double standard angle to the end, here im saying its not Obama but on the other side of the coin you guys are saying its not Bush. My biggest problem with Bush was going into Iraq, if by chance, that lending is still de-regulated, why are the banks locked up tight now? and why is it not business as usual? believe me I loved Bushes tax cuts, But, that dont pay the bills. I think what it boils down to is the 2 main party system, it just fcn dont work, not in this world, it divides and maybe terms arnt long enough, you get the ball rolling and bam...start all over again. A politician can go 2 ways, into politics or selling used cars (no pun) I guess in a way im just fed up with the entire system, I dont like being a pawn on a chessboard and deals cut in back rooms over a hand shake, lobbyists...i wont even go there, special interest groups, not there either..I will probably vote in the middle in 2 years cause really I cant take either side anymore. this still is a fact, the best times in my life that I will never see again were in the 90's, why i dont know, but finacially they were good times and from about 2002 till present they have been 60 hour weeks for the same money and...what more can I say, I think most will agree

Did you watch at all some of the horrific *************** that happened on 9/11 on the history channel. They played back the orginal calls from the planes with the highjackers, showed callers calling from the floors on the twin towers, they where burning and no way out. And we had no reason to go to Irag. Well aint that some *************** Eric. Then what where we suppose to do, stick a finger in our ass and send them a pot roast. Bush did what was needed. You attack America, we fight back with vengance. Other countries want what we got. FREEDOM! FUK-EM! Lovee Bush, sent a tear to my eye when he showed true American pride and said "We will be at War with the terriosts and Irag to find who had done this act"!! Go get em Bush! Do what ever it takes. You got one American on your side...
It is amazing, and just so sad what those people went through. Some people just dont remember.

Eric, Iraq had WMD, true or false. If you claim false, how do you explain this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction
Those are UN statistics. Saddam had WMD. Where did they go? Al Quaeda had everything to do with 9-11 and Al Quaeda was in contact with Iraq over WMD. Al Quaeda is who trained the Saudis and they considered themselves Muslims before any country tie. Saddam was a loose cannon not living up to UN resolutions reguarding WMDs and as president, Bush was concerned about this clear and present enemy and danger to the US possessing WMD. That was the intelligence and that is the connection to Iraq and 9 11. No one lied, that was the best intel of the time. I know you are concerned about our young men and that is admirable, but I do not get the same story from the troops when I visit with them, they are pissed at Obama for leaving them hanging out to dry with politics.
You seem to want to blame the banks for the downfall of the economy. Do you understand what GSE's are? As a businessman, you should do some research there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government-sponsored_enterprise
This program, going back to 1916. This was a model democrat, old Woodrow Wilson who interjected government into the private business of banking to buy votes. By the time we got to modern history, Barney Frank and Chris Dodd had set up the system so the core Democrat voters would get financing from banks under Fannie May and Freddy Mac or banks would be punished for discrimination. Government should never have interjected itself here and the results were predictable. That is why there is no money out there right now. Anyone with money is holding it, because they do not know how Obama is going to try and get it next to support crack babys.
Look, on the war on terror, it is not going away. The Islamists are out to destroy western civilization, and the "moderate" muslims are just playing the middle. They will attach themselves to whoever wins. We either bring the fight to them and at least attempt to make a foothold of freedom in their country that might spread, or we sit at home sweeping up bomb blasts and crashed airplanes. If the American people are not on board with bringing the fight to the enemy, we should not be there. If this was a mistake, then it was Bush's mistake. I think he really felt that we needed to make an attempt in A'stan and in Iraq. If it was a screw up, it was a screw up out of concern for America's security. Obama only cares about bring socialism here as quickly as possible. He wants you to shut up and color, and you need to bring the fruits of YOUR labor to him so he can "spread the wealth" not to who you designate, but to who will elect him next time.

Obviously we have 2 different views creating the same thing that is happening in our government,
Taxes are a part of life, it built this country, your 401 paid everyone's mortgage,
we carpet bombed Iraq for 24 hours a day 7 days a week (imprecisely), you really don't hear about the innocents, the children not fogged with terrorists thoughts....we go in, supply them with better medical than most here in this country have, rebuild them,
we both know we weren't' chasing WMDs,
Im for taking out a country, but for the right reason. people create hate to justify a situation and to relieve your soul of wrong doings. were there, we've occupied and now what?
BTW, North Korea does have WMD, and the means to transport them into this country....the problem with this situation is if you cross over they re border, they do have them and will use them....but if you ain't got em....you cant use em...pretty ironic