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phospher
Gold Member Joined: July-19-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 557 |
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You mention tax liability. By that aren't you trying to say that you think people on this site pay more into taxes than I do? Well, if I don't make much money I don't pay much taxes. So I go back to my first question.. |
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OverMyHead
Grand Poobah Joined: March-14-2008 Location: MN Status: Offline Points: 4861 |
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I have to take offense at your bashing of the constition. I believe the authors where inspired and it remains as relevent today as the day it was written. The constitution is all based on individual rights (God created us all egual, so much for seperation of church and state.) So no one should have power over another for no one is superior. The authors saw government as neccesary but also as a source of power likely to be corrupted so they aimed to limit its size and scope. The document does not say much about what government can do, mostly what it cannot. The authors had the forsight to leave it adaptable but also warned that any changes should not be taken lightly. They also had the forsight to have the power split equally between the three legislative branches as a form of checks and balances. All pretty bright ideas and forward thinking for their time, or today. As far as scholars interpreting the constition, I can read the document and get its intentions. Scholars tend to know and think to much. They look for and ad thhings that where never there. It is hard to eliminate personal bias, as my writtings prove, most interprtos have their own biases and agendas and interpret the constition to fit. Every pay attention to majority and dessenting opinions of the supreme court. Ther are not always right answers but the cherry picked judges in the majority get to win. I would say the original document is sound along with most of the amendments, but it has been warped by years of interprettaions. I would ask if this document is so bad who has a good one? and why did we become the richest and most powerful nation in only 210 or so years if we are operating on such poorly written guidelines. |
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For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats.
1987 Ski Nautique |
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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Don't put words in my mouth.
So you get your return in by April the 13th every year? |
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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Thanks Dave!
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folboteur
Newbie Joined: November-05-2010 Location: RepublicanLand Status: Offline Points: 4 |
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If it's any consolation prize, I also told my friend that your name is the most accurate. :-) Rob. |
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"If Liberty means anything at all, it is the right to tell people what they don't want to hear."
--George Orwell |
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phospher
Gold Member Joined: July-19-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 557 |
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Ah, yes you are an attorney if I recall correctly?? I disagree with your take on it if the "document is sound" how can it be interepreted differently? Well written docs should be easy and concise. And, I would further say that there are a LOT of constitional attorneys who would disagree with you too. Again, if it was well written this wouldn't be.
As far as how we became the most powerful and rich nation. I think that might have something to do with imperialism and forcefully taking over land etc. We figured out how to turn oil into gas, cars, electricty, gold, and a bunch of other stuff we sold to the world. Are we really rich or is our money borrowed? I don't really know how rich we are.... |
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phospher
Gold Member Joined: July-19-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 557 |
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What words did I put in your mouth? If you re-read my post you will notice a ? mark after the question. Yes, I do. |
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OverMyHead
Grand Poobah Joined: March-14-2008 Location: MN Status: Offline Points: 4861 |
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Hmmm, "Ouch" and "Good one" all at the same time. The screen name refers to my boat mechanics knowlege at the time I joined the site. If it had been a political site it would have been "Head of the Class" or maybe "Always Right". My wife says when she met me she knew I was Mr. right, It was not untill we got married she found out my first name is Always. |
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For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats.
1987 Ski Nautique |
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OverMyHead
Grand Poobah Joined: March-14-2008 Location: MN Status: Offline Points: 4861 |
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Follow the money. Constitional lawyers are paid by someone usually to bastardize the constitution to fit their needs. I am not a lawyer but I can understand. Example (from memory sorry if a word or two are misplaced). Quarenteed life liberty and the persuit of happiness. These are rights and by definition one right cannot superceed or conflict with another. So we are guarenteed life. No one can take it from us. so murder is illegal. Some say the guarentee of life should guarentee health care. But taking money from someone else to pay anothers medical insurance directly conflicts with their liberty and ability to pursue happiness, so health care is not a right. It would be an entitlement which is not in the constition anywhere. There, pretty clean and simple. Even a floor guy can figure it out. When you sell stuff the money is yours. sell enough and you get rich. Start borrowing and then you have to figure net worth. but that is literal interpretaion. I was reffering to standards of living. We have the richest poor in the world. They have apartments /tvs/cellphones, all from the excess of the wealth our system can generate if not hindered. |
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For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats.
1987 Ski Nautique |
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jimsport93
Platinum Member Joined: February-20-2008 Location: Alpharetta Ga Status: Offline Points: 1750 |
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Has anyone ever read the book entitled "Atlas Shrugged", by Ayn Rand? Published in 1957. It remains a best seller.
It is a fiction, but gives an insightful look at the powerful force of free enterprise. And how excessive government/political interference stifles the creative, job producing, economy building and prosperity producing efforts of entrepreneurial individuals. I highly recommend it. |
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OverMyHead
Grand Poobah Joined: March-14-2008 Location: MN Status: Offline Points: 4861 |
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Your debating it and judging its quality also Mr smartypants. Are you a constitution specialist?(I hope not or that will come off really bad) The document belongs to all of us. To read, debate, appreciate and prosper from. |
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For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats.
1987 Ski Nautique |
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folboteur
Newbie Joined: November-05-2010 Location: RepublicanLand Status: Offline Points: 4 |
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Second only to invoking Hitler, references to "Atlas Shrugged" usually mark the end of civil discourse in a political discussion. I have read Atlas Shrugged, and all the way through the 1,000 plus pages I had this niggling feeling that something just wasn't right. The premise is of a "self-made" superman, who has everything he has as a result of of personal effort, brains, skill, etc. Rand glosses over any question of how her hero acquired his Steel mine, or any other of his possessions. She completely ignores, however, the thing that JoeInNY pointed out in yesterday's 11:59a.m. post -- much of what a person is able to achieve is enabled by the society in which they live. The laws an regulations that make it possible to grow and be educated largely unmolested, not as a slave, in prosperity rather than slums or "company-towns." Rand fosters this "I got mine all by myself so I owe nothing to nobody, F*** you and leave me alone" mentality that is negligent/naive/forgetful at best and sociopathic at worst. Bottom line, try to argue the points rather than appeal to a book for justifications for your beliefs. (Goes for the Bahble Thumpers, too.) :-) |
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"If Liberty means anything at all, it is the right to tell people what they don't want to hear."
--George Orwell |
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Hansel
Senior Member Joined: September-21-2006 Location: Twin Cities, MN Status: Offline Points: 415 |
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Who is "their"? Whose ability to pursue happiness are we focusing on here? Your's or everybody else's? I'd venture a guess that most of us would rather be healthy than have money. By your logic above, the converse must also be true. Thus holding on to your money to not pay for my medical insurance directly conflicts with my ability to pursue happiness. So you have no right to your money. I agree with folboteur. Nobody gets anywhere on their own. |
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"The only prudence in fishermen is that designed to set the stage for taking yet another, and perhaps a longer, chance." -Aldo Leopold
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OverMyHead
Grand Poobah Joined: March-14-2008 Location: MN Status: Offline Points: 4861 |
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You missed the fine print. Happiness is not quarenteed, who could ever do that? But the pursuit is. Taking from another messes with their pusuit. |
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For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats.
1987 Ski Nautique |
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phospher
Gold Member Joined: July-19-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 557 |
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Sorry, it was a serious question. I must have you mixed up with someone else on here.... I thought you were an attorney hence the reason why you were taking issue. I agree with you when you say "The document belongs to all of us. To read, debate, appreciate and prosper from". |
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folboteur
Newbie Joined: November-05-2010 Location: RepublicanLand Status: Offline Points: 4 |
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Well, no.. If your pursuit of happiness ruins someone else's pursuit of life, there is a situation requiring the "community" come to together to deal with the conflict. We do this in courts and laws and society, every day.
Reading this logical chain, I had a flashback to Monty Python's "Holy Grail," the witch scene. BTW, who posted that Democrats don't have jobs. That was a brilliant start to the discussion. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr8DIg3oHFI |
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"If Liberty means anything at all, it is the right to tell people what they don't want to hear."
--George Orwell |
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OverMyHead
Grand Poobah Joined: March-14-2008 Location: MN Status: Offline Points: 4861 |
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Also takiang their money (property) at the threat of force, for redistribution to another, messes with their liberty
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For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats.
1987 Ski Nautique |
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Hansel
Senior Member Joined: September-21-2006 Location: Twin Cities, MN Status: Offline Points: 415 |
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I hate to get into this, and note that I edited the initial post to clarify my argument. It seems to me that you are more closely identifying money with the pursuit of happiness than any other thing. I think there are lots of other things that make up the pursuit of happiness. Such as being healthy. Therefore, doesn't it make sense that universal health care is just as constitutional as anything? Does not being happy require so much more than money? |
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"The only prudence in fishermen is that designed to set the stage for taking yet another, and perhaps a longer, chance." -Aldo Leopold
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OverMyHead
Grand Poobah Joined: March-14-2008 Location: MN Status: Offline Points: 4861 |
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Sorry about the Mr smarty pants thing, that was for my own entertainment |
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For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats.
1987 Ski Nautique |
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phospher
Gold Member Joined: July-19-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 557 |
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Well it's about time we get some different view points around here. Can't wait to hear from Skicat.
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OverMyHead
Grand Poobah Joined: March-14-2008 Location: MN Status: Offline Points: 4861 |
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I talk of money because that is what is taken from us in the form of taxes. We "pay" taxes for legitmate forms of government, streets military..., it is taken if used for non legitimat purposes like entitlements and re-distribution. Again it is the pursuit of happiness that is quarenteed, not the actual happiness. you can exercise , pay your medical costs, and i can not stop you but you violate my rights by mandating I pay for someone elses pursuit, and rights can not conflict with one another because they are rights. Of cours I can give charitably which gives me happiness, but not if the money is confiscated before I can do so. Rights!!! |
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For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats.
1987 Ski Nautique |
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Hansel
Senior Member Joined: September-21-2006 Location: Twin Cities, MN Status: Offline Points: 415 |
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Hi Dave,
Thanks for your replies. Many rights can and do conflict with one another all the time. Let's face it; we all pay money to help other people pursue happiness every day. Yes, at some point you have to draw the line, but I don't think it is out there to say health care should be a priority of the government. In fact, I would argue that it is more in keeping with the ideal of the pursuit of happiness for government to do everything it can to see that the basic needs of all of it's citizens are met. In the 21st Century, that means accessible health care to everybody, IMHO. |
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"The only prudence in fishermen is that designed to set the stage for taking yet another, and perhaps a longer, chance." -Aldo Leopold
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Waterdog
Grand Poobah Joined: April-27-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2020 |
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Basic health care starts at home. I don't think I should pay MY cell phone bill and someone else get 250 min. on ME.
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7953 |
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Debating with Phil and now his buddy is like wrestling with a pig in the mud...
This thread started by encouraging people to go out and vote. As far as Republicans go, Maine will be a good state to watch to see how they do because they took the governor, house and senate for the first time since 1962. But unlike Obama who promised more than he could possibly deliver, they have only promised a friendier business envoirment and smaller government. |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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its about fcn time....if we are talking about it, so is someone else. recognizing that something is wrong and shoveling it under the carpet isn't working anymore...we are the people we are the government. for god sakes i voted for a black man which if you asked me that 10 years ago i wouldve said not in my lifetime, im not racist but GD a blackman got into office because of one thing, corruption..greed, and you know i watched an interview with the new speaker, he's no better than the rest of them, he is a true politician and time will show that, he dodges a question better than you dodging your in-laws.
im really fed up with politics and was trying to stay away, it cant be a me-me me- society anymore, its causing division, it cant be a give give give society either, sht, i turned my best buddy in for sucking the workers comp system, that sht pisses me off, i work my balls off everyday as our grandparents did always will, but if you sit on the sidelines with your ass keeping your hands warm this is the sht that happens. awareness is pretty much the focus. if you let something happen and dont do anything about it, it will happen |
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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OverMyHead
Grand Poobah Joined: March-14-2008 Location: MN Status: Offline Points: 4861 |
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Sorry to skip out so suddenly. I went to volunteer at my daughters school. I know I am a greedy republican and schools are government funded, but I like helping them meet their goals with out passing another referendom. I waited tables at a spaghette dinner for 3 hours. Very nice and appreciative customers. I enjoyed it. I didnt mind Phil and friend, I get tired of preaching to the choir. IMHO the problem is everyone thinks that what is their humble opinion should be or is in ths constitution. Health care , medicare, social security are all inventions of the last 3/4 century. This country went over 150 years without them. Charity and social programs were privatly funded or provided by churches or in many cases neighboors saw the need and picked up the slack.Some people even took personal responsibility for themselves. The idea that this stuff was in the constition is crazy. Like I said, lawyers have twisted and streched it to say things never even referenced. How many here have read the entire constitution? Declaration of Independance? Bible? I set out to read them all a few years back and am proud to say I completed them. I am amazed at how few people I ask have done even one of them. I am also amazed these founding documents are not taught in our schools, we do teach how to use condoms and read books about alternative families, I am sure they are just to busy for the constitution. |
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For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats.
1987 Ski Nautique |
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OverMyHead
Grand Poobah Joined: March-14-2008 Location: MN Status: Offline Points: 4861 |
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??????? |
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For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats.
1987 Ski Nautique |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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they were a road map to guide for the time, imagine if they wernt written? but again, crude for todays standards, but it was a basis and the start of what we know as the government.
i just see a dead stalemate for the next 2 years, the thing i do see not happening is the spending which I believe is crucial in any economy inside of our walls. Joe pretty much hit the nail on the head though. |
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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harddock
Platinum Member Joined: June-04-2008 Location: Toontown, MA Status: Offline Points: 1763 |
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He could have delivered but at what cost? When Obama has invited republicans to offer ideas he refused to even consider any of them. Then the democrats would pass bill without the republicans because they had the numbers. When the republicans objected they became the party of no. Go back a few years and the exact same thing could be written with the republicans having power and the democrats saying no to everything. Did we learn anything. No one party can or should have the absolute power, thus the reason for three segments of government, Checks and balances. Government only works with some type of balance and they need to stop worrying about just winning the next election which by the way is all their really only talking about now. |
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OverMyHead
Grand Poobah Joined: March-14-2008 Location: MN Status: Offline Points: 4861 |
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I found a PDF of the constitution this morning and searched the word community, it came up empty! |
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For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats.
1987 Ski Nautique |
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