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Yes, I sympathize with you. Lots of people go through hard times and come out on top and I hope you will do the same. And I mean that.

Religion, ahh my favorite topic. Politcs, not so much but Religion that is my favorite bone to pick. First of all stop donating to the church. They don't need your money. How much does your pastor/priest make a year? Do you know? Pastors typically earn 64,000 a year for small congregations and over 100K for larger ones. Of course there are some that don't make a lot (I'm thinking small sothern Chruches) but by in large they do well. How about those saints donate more money? You guys really need to get over your imaginery friend. Again, to all you who pray, god didn't save the jews why the hell do you think he's going to save you? As if your more worthy then the 6 million jews that were killed by the Nazi's. You/we are so insignificant in this universe that you only matter to the people you know. Imagine how much further along we would be if people didn't have the mind set that they were going to heaven after this life. I know after your years of dedication to worship it's a tough pill to swallow and likely you never will. But there is zero reason to believe in an after life or a super power that you call God. Coincidences don't count.

This stuff does not just happen by coincidence.

yes it does and that is exactly what it is.


Science and Engineering has given us everything wishful thinking has given us nothing. The more you learn about science the more you will realize that the idea of God is rediculous. You are stardust my friend and your religion can't stand on it's own two legs. Intelligent design is a philosophy of ignorance science is a philosophy of discovery.

Phil and his buddies want to save the world and thats fine if they choose to use their money that way

Just for the record, I have no idea who these guys are I'm just happy we finally get some different view points on this site. I hope that they will chime back in.

Phil, I don't understand what your attraction to this site is. Obviously you've never been to a reunion and met any of the people that frequent here often. If you did, you would handle yourself differently due to the respect you would have for the people you met. You need some humble pie.

Riley wrote: Phil, I don't understand what your attraction to this site is. Obviously you've never been to a reunion and met any of the people that frequent here often. If you did, you would handle yourself differently due to the respect you would have for the people you met. You need some humble pie.

And how is it that you think you guys can express your views but I cannot express mine? So you think that if I don't agree with everyone I just shouldn't say anything? Wouldn't that make a great world..

Phil, My church which I will continue to donate to set and met a goal of packaging and seding one million meals to feed the poor in africa over a few months last year. I volunterred on a team that packaged hundreds in one eveving. Don't tell me who to donate to.. This is one small example of it's outreach programs.

Phil, this is a political thread, how about we start two more new ones, One about God and one about religion and churches, as they are seperate in my mind. I am happy to have you express your viewpoint , as far as I am concerned it is welcome here, How else do we learn. So far though you seem very angry towards something you do not believe in. What happened to tolerance for diversity? Incidentally, my church has no membership fee, they do not dictate giving like the government does. They have about 8 different Christmas week services with many visitors they could shuck for money, but in the time I have been there they never passed a basket that week. I was wrong about the 1 million meals, that was their goal, they shipped 1.2 million meals at a cost of a small fraction of a dollar each. Supply and labor was all donated. That is what you can do in the private sector. What do you think a WIC meal costs here in the US? And I would much rather see my pastor make several hundred grand than Randy Moss make millions (Minnesota sore spot.) Why does the list of Greedy never include sports stars or Hollywood? An indian source this week claimed 200 million would be spent on security for Obama, I doubt that figure but there are some amazing things being done, I found these.
Mr Obama’s entourage will travel in a fleet of 45 U.S.-built armoured limousines, half of which will be decoys. He will also travel with 30 elite sniffer dogs, mostly German Shepherds.
The White House has, according to some reports, booked the entire Taj Mahal Palace Hotel in Mumbai, the city’s most luxurious. It is not uncommon for the grander heads of state to reserve a floor or two, but a whole hotel is unprecedented. To the amazement of the Indians accompanying the U.S. agents, it was apparently decided to erect a bomb-proof over-ground tunnel, which will be installed by U.S. military engineers in just an hour.
The kilometre-long tunnel will measure 12ft by 12ft and will have air-conditioning, close-circuit television cameras, and will be heavily guarded at every point.
It's being built so it is large enough for Mr Obama's cavalcade to pass through and will be manned at its entry and exit points.
For the money spent on that in a country full of impoverished lower class people just think of the good will we could have purchased with churches making meals.
And your complaining about Pastors making a hundred grand? You will have to do better than that .

wasnt showing pitty for you, just letting you know the economy doesnt discriminate, maybe in a way i was trying to calm your sense of letting something go and it hapened to me and your not alone here...in a very non sarcastic way. we talk politics and all kinds of other BS, but not the personal day to day things and I was implying dont be embarrssed because maybe i had a different persona of myself out there according to my circle of friends. all the shoulda, coulda i woulda's...*************** happens and my point was to look forward not behind.
As with you, ive been on many 10 milly plus boats, guys that started from the botten and worked up, 18 hours a day, calluses on their hands and they would have a meanigful conversation at our level...but again was on many more that came from old money, corrupt money and those are the people who feel they are better than everyone else and i think i posted once when i was on a boat who the owner was from the St Louis Cardinals (I believe) and the old bitch started going off on me. at that point it wasnt yes maam, it was who the fck do you think you are? point being, those are the filthy rich 10 million dollar second home write-offs on water and so on....do i think the rich should pay EQUAL taxes, yes.
its no honor to work on these boats because i know where most of the money comes from, someone elses mis-fortune, old money and so on. dont get me wrong there are the guys that worked for their money but in that class most came not from an honests day of hard work

Eric, The honor has to do with the structures or boats, they are amazing, I consider it a compliment to my talents etc...that I am chosen to do the work. As for the owners I have been pleasently surprised in most cases at how nice they are, A few would end up in the lake if I worked on boats.

OverMyHead wrote: Phil, this is a political thread, how about we start two more new ones, One about God and one about religion and churches, as they are seperate in my mind. I am happy to have you express your viewpoint , as far as I am concerned it is welcome here, How else do we learn. So far though you seem very angry towards something you do not believe in. What happened to tolerance for diversity? Incidentally, my church has no membership fee, they do not........And your complaining about Pastors making a hundred grand? You will have to do better than that .

You don't have a problem with Pastors earning 100k? That is way more than they need to live with basic needs. This doesn't even include all their benefits which are no doubt better than yours(and mine). Just think how much more your pastor could do for "God" if he donated 3/4 of his salary every year. The fact that you have to pay to worship should tell you something. Of course you could go to church and not pay a dime but there is definitely pressure to throw your money into that basket especially if your a regular. I'll bet your Church sends envolopes to your house for contributions too. Most do. A lot of these guys are treated like CEO's. Just think how much better you would be doing if you would have made the career choice to become a pastor. Poor people donating to a Pastor making 100K+ a year with the hopes of doing the right thing and getting to heaven. Yeah, I see a big problem with that.


As far as the dollars being spent for Obama's security. So typical and so hypocritical. How about all you good Christians slash the military budget or does God want us to be the #1 military power too? You Christian Republicans are such hypocrites. On one hand you love your God and try and serve him on the other hand your pro war and against giving money to anything but your church. Certainly, your against MOST all social spending. Your against abortion but don't want to pay for the child when he goes on welfare either. You can't have it both ways.

You think God would be a republican if he was real?


Yes, I'm angry at all the people who have been dupped by religion because it stops the advancement of learning and knowledge. God is nothing more than a God of gaps. That is to say God is only invoked when people don't understand things.

Phil, are you a sciencetoligist?

No, scientology deserves as much ridicule as theistic religions.

phospher wrote:    You Christian Republicans ...

It may be fairly obvious, but I want to make sure that you're not grouping these two in a blanket statement. I would consider myself one, but in no way would I consider myself the other.

Good debate going on though...please continue

Religion, no matter what brand is there to give one a consence. Religious teachings give one a knowledge of right from wrong and a set of values by which to live your life.
There are good and bad versions of each religion. Some are just money making, tax avoiding institutions while others are truely there to do good for mankind. Some are a combination of both.

In any case you have a choice whether to believe, or not, participate and fund or not, and of course condemn any you don't understand.

Whether to debate the merits or faults of each and any here or to keep yours between you and what you believe in solely up to each his own.

If you're willing to see an educator paid that much and you're willing to pay for education, I'm sure you would be willing to see a pastor paid reasonably and want to contribute to the operating costs of the church, IF YOU BELIEVED. Do you disagree? I know you don't believe, so it's kind of a moot point, but I'm sure you understand the point, right?

To describe this a little further, here's a bit more of an explanation...

I like to see educators paid a decent wage so they can provide a good learning experience. I rely upon the advanced education they received to be applied in a way to better educate our populace. Sure, we could teach our children ourselves, by reading the textbooks with them and self teaching, but it is a lot more effective letting someone expertly trained in a subject to teach it.

Similarly, I like to see pastors paid a decent wage so they can provide a good learning experience. Someone that has received an advanced education in theology is going to do a much better job helping people learn more about the Biblle, for example. Sure, they could read it on their own and study it, but it is more effective letting someone expertly trained in the subject teach it.

In addition, there are some social aspects of schools and churches that are part of the experience and part of the reason most of us feel it is worth paying for. Socializing with others, fellowship, sharing of ideas and creating bonds happen in both environments and most feel they are positive results of supporting each of them.

Like I said, you might not agree with it because of your stance and beliefs, but does what I explained make sense?

Onto intellegent design. Phil, you must be a big Darwin guy, have you ever read the front matter to the origin of the species? Darwin in proposing his theory listed some elements that if they turned out to be true would negate his theory. Speaking of Fossils, being a new science at the time and not having much data available, Darwin insisted that evolution would be a constant ongoing process and the fossil record would be full of transitonal species. To date not a single fossil of a species in transition has been found. Darwin also stated that if it where discoverd that organisms where to complex to initaly form from the primortial ozzz it would also negate his theory. DNA had not been discovered at that time. I have heard one teaspoon of DNA, if we could harness its abilities would store the instructions to make every single living organsism on earth, and still have room to store every book ever written on the entire planet. Far beyond the current storage capacity of computer chips. The very first organism to come out of the ooze would have had to have DNA in order to build itself, and the need to replicate to continue the species. How does that happen from a bunch of chemicals in an ocean? You can make this leap of faith but dismiss a creator? What of the chaos principle, how did life evolve to higher levels. Plus Darwin said life begets life. Or life can only come from an existing organism. SO where did the first one come from, complete with DNA? Imagine walking on a sand dune, and finding a nice silicon computer chip, fully functional in the middle of it. Where would you summise it came from. Buried by someone, fell from a plane? How long would it take to get to, well sand is silicon, it must have blown around just right, got hit by lightening, scraped on some rocks till it finally became a working computer chip? I believe you would dismiss that as an option first thing, but we accept that dna was created spontaneously in an ancient ocean. None of these exceptions are taught in our schools however, and intelegnt design is dismissed as an option. I believe that our planet is more than a few thousand years old (who knows how long one of Gods days are?) and I believe that species do adapt and change but I also believe life is to complicated and diverse to have been an accident. As for evolving explain to me the bombadier beatle. The little guy stores two chemicals in his abdomen that he is able to mix in a specialised exhaust system creating an explosive hot gas that shoots out his backside to detour preditors from feasting on him. Explain how he evolved. If he develops the chemicals without the delivery system,we have beetles self destructing all over the place, certainly not a survival of the fitest situation, if he develops the delivery system first there is no evolutionary advantage without the chemnicals, same for deveolping either of the chemicals without the other. It is only the complete system that finally gives him his "evolved" advantage. Almost like he was designed rather than evolved when looked at with a critical scientific mind. I am not saying you have to believe, but I think there is reason to not rule out a creator.

phospher wrote: wishful thinking has given us nothing.

Except B Obama, and triilions of new debt.

OverMyHead wrote: bkhallpass wrote: Didn't we have this conversation several months ago? I think it would be really good just to drop this. BKH Sorry I missed the last one. Give me another day or two to play with Phil , and then I will bail out.

OverMyHead,

You really have no idea how ignorant you sound to people like me. I'm going to spare everyone what I've already gone over but I think I answer all of your questions right here:

http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16590&PN=1&title=it-should-be-true



Please do read that thread in it's entirety and if you would like to pick up the religion discussion simply reply to that thread and I'll follow up. Here's a taste;

I think Carlin summed it up pretty good...


"But folks, I have to tell you, in the bullshiz department a businessman can't hold a candle to a clergyman. Because when it comes to bullshiz, big-time, major leage bull, you have to stand in awe--in awe!!--of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims: religion. No contest.

Religion--easily--has the Greates Bullshiz Story Ever Told! Think about it: religion has actually convinced people--many of them adults--that there's an invisible man who lives in the sky and watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And who has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do.

And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to remain and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry, forever and ever, till the end of time. But he loves you!

He loves you, and he needs money! He always needs money. he's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, but somehow... he just can't handle money. Religion takes in billions of dollars, pays no taxes, and somehow always needs a little more. now, you talk about a good bullshiz story. Holy Shiz!"

all i know is im hitting up Father Dave for 20 bucks on Sunday.
back to the teacher side of things or should we call them baby sitters, which get about 4 months off a year, 100k no way. pay them by the hour. on state retirement great plan, most seek a different source of income during the summer....they should work year fcn round, paying special attention to the ones they say have a.d.d or o.d.d or f.o.p or. funny the teacher told my brother that his kid needed to go on meds, my brothers reply, maybe you need to go on Valiums, I just thought that was funny and the kid turned out to be a fine young man w/o the meds