Valvoline VR1 racing oil in name only |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Luch, "Snake oil" is a slang term given to substances that are doubtful in there performance. The term came from the "Wild West" days in the US when traveling salesmen roamed from town to town selling tonics that were nothing more than alcohol and opiates. I ran into our lubricate supplier at the plant this afternoon and again asked him about the zinc additives. He again told me that even though there are other compounds that enhance lubrication properties of oils, nothing beats the zincs. It has been used for years and has a proven track record. Our severe duty deep drawing lubes have lots of it!! I'm sticking with Valvolene VR1 and not trust a "snake oil". |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Online Points: 21169 |
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Snake Oil. n. 1. A worthless preparation fraudulently peddled as a cure for many ills. 2. Speech or writing intended to deceive; humbug. |
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anthonylizardi
Gold Member Joined: July-25-2007 Location: DFW, TX, USA Status: Offline Points: 836 |
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Pete,
This question has been asked but nobody has answer it. VR1 comes in different grades now, 10W-30, 30, 40, 50, 60. I am using 20W-50. The oil preassure seems high and I wonder if I should consider other grades like 10W-30 or a straight weight on my next oil change. |
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Luchog
Grand Poobah Joined: April-17-2007 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 2135 |
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Allright guys, I get the whole snake oil thing, what I dont understand yet is how do you determine that a certain product, such as the MPC MT-10 in this case is uneffective or harmfull for the engine???
After I did the treatment on my engine, wich is adding 10% of the crankcase oil capacity (I added less) on a warm engine, my iddle went 200rpms higher and the engine overall felt smoother on the whole rpm range. I have put over 150 hours on my engine since, and made 2 oil/filter changes. Oil pressure drops to 35 only when the oil is next to a change, 55-60 while under way. I use the boat 2-3 days a week on winter and 5-6 days a week on summer. I'd normally use a 15w40 Diesel oil, but the PO put Mobile 1 straight 40 on this engine and I chose to keep using it, just different brand, because I feared that a multigraded oil detergent package could carbon clean the engine and mess things up. Only mechanical issues with this engine so far (knock on wood)have been the advance weights at the distributor, one valve seat broke a few months ago but I'd not dare saying it had anything to do with lubrication but on the fact that the heads were never fully rebuilt as the rest of the engine was. Now they are too. While the heads were apart, I checked the tappets and found absolutely no marks or signs of wear, I wonder if I could have taken a look at the cam lobes also. This is a personal first hand experience with this product (MPC MT-10), maybe time will prove me wrong, so far it has worked well in my opinion. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Anthony,
Want do you consider a high oil pressure? Have you checked the pressure with a mechanical gauge T'd in at the sender? |
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anthonylizardi
Gold Member Joined: July-25-2007 Location: DFW, TX, USA Status: Offline Points: 836 |
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I think the oil pressure is 60-70psi
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anthonylizardi
Gold Member Joined: July-25-2007 Location: DFW, TX, USA Status: Offline Points: 836 |
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But the question is should I consider a lower weight VR1 oil
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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OK, might as well jump into the fray (Deja Vu). I discussed mixing different weight oils with my local lubrication engineer & he said it was perfectly OK to mix 10W30 with 20W50. So I mix 50/50 so the oil pressure isn't quite so high. Engine hasn't blown yet, have my fingers crossed he is right!
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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skutsch
Grand Poobah Joined: June-19-2008 Location: Racine, WI Status: Offline Points: 2874 |
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Ok guys so you all have me very, very scared. So being the crazy engineer turned marketing guy, I have poured over A LOT of websites, looking for the real deal. I found a guy on www.stevesnovasite.com forum (veno) who actually paid for a couple of independent testing companies to test different oils. One of his threads is REALLY long and after reading through the whole thing, I feel very confident in his data. Unfortunately, he never summarized it into something that tied it all together. Don't get me wrong he comes up with conclusions and recommendations, but not with the relevant numbers attached. So I have gone ahead and done that and the information is attached here.
You will see that most of the more popular oils discussed here (Rotella T, VR1, Mobile1) tested in the 1200 to 1600 ppm range. I believe this is an acceptable range to provide protection for normal use on our engines. Cam break in is another story and you might want to use an additive. The good news most of this data was obtained in 2008 so it is what I would call relatively recent. Hope this is helpful. Steve |
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skutsch
Grand Poobah Joined: June-19-2008 Location: Racine, WI Status: Offline Points: 2874 |
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Oh yeah, I should probably post his summary:
Oils suitable for breakin……..that are available. with enough Zinc and Phophorus.. OILS LISTED BY ALPHABETICAL ORDER NOT BY QUALITY or quantity of content. Brad penn break in oil grp2 Joe Gibbs break in oil grp2 Pennzoil GT performance. All weights. grp2 Shell Rotela T 30wt, 40wt, 15W40wt. grp2 Starbright 30Wt grp2 Starbright 40Wt (pending) grp2 Valvoline VR1.. all weights grp2 . I like the Rotela because of the extra dispersant's and detergents… it creates a higher viscous… and will suspend small particles I also like the StarBright because of the 1600ppm of zinc and is as cheap as Rotela Best diesel oil test ever... http://www.turbodieselregister.com/TDR57_Oil.pdf OILS suitable for street High performance use with enough Zinc and Phosphorus for flat cams and High spring rates. Up to 150lbs seat pressure. Brad Penn all weights grp2 Castrol syntec 20W50 for older cars grp3 Champion XPS 20W50 grp3 syn Joe Gibbs oils grp?? Mobil1 15W50 gold cap and silver cap. grp4 syn Mobil1 Turbo diesel truck grp4 syn Mogil1 racing grp4 syn Pennzoil GT 25W50 grp2 Royal Purple racing oils Grp5 syn Shell Rotela T 30wt, 40wt, 15W40wt. grp2 Quaker State Q horse power 10w60 only grp 3 syn Valvoline VR1 all weights grp2 TRACK/RACE only. Brad Penn all weights grp2 Champion XPS 20W50 grp3 syn. Joe Gibbs oils grp?? Mobil1 racing grp4 syn Pennzoil GT all weights grp2 Royal Purple racing oil all weights grp5 syn Quaker State Q RACING all weights…syn Valvoline VR1 all weights grp2 Valvoline synthetic racing all weights grp? Valvoline conventional NSL all weights grp2 And a few others have a select few oils.. I have not investigated them.. as they are some what hard to get. and saw no real need to.. Oils that are generally not good for Flat tappet cams are the API SM with the ILSAC GF3 and ILSAC GF4 ratings... the GF3 rating is 1000ppm or less of zinc, while the GF4 is 800ppm zinc or less.. which is the current rating as of 11/2007 the energy saving oils that fall in the 0Wto40, like 0w5, 0w10, 0w20, 0w30, 10w30, 10w40, 5w20, 5w30, are all very low in zinc to the tune of .800ppm or less...be sure to look for the ILSAC GF3/4 rating... GF3 GF4 is the clue to low zinc content... all the VOA's I have seen on these type of oils have all been below 800ppm with most in the 600 range And this is the link to the thread if you want to read through the whole thing. http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80715&highlight=zddp (If you do decide to read it, spend the time to read the WHOLE thing, because he questions to the point of giving up on some oils (like VR1) before he finishes or completes his testing and you can't really jump to the end cause you miss a lot of his analysis on the "whats & why's") |
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seacamper
Platinum Member Joined: June-24-2010 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1056 |
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Brain......melting....eyes.....burning...
So, for my 1989 2001 SN with stock 351 I would be right in the safe zone with Rotella straight 40, Valvolene Vr1 straight 40 or Vr1 20w50 AND a filter other than Fram? |
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1980 Ski Nautique Boat Bar
1988 Mastercraft Tristar Open Bow 1988 Mastercraft Tristar Closed Bow 1969 Seacamper Houseboat 1986 Harris Pontoon 2004 Seadoo GTX SC + Flydive Xboard 1999 Adventurecraft |
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seacamper
Platinum Member Joined: June-24-2010 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1056 |
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So this is the stuff I want?
https://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?A=SHR550019904_0006509994&An=0 |
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1980 Ski Nautique Boat Bar
1988 Mastercraft Tristar Open Bow 1988 Mastercraft Tristar Closed Bow 1969 Seacamper Houseboat 1986 Harris Pontoon 2004 Seadoo GTX SC + Flydive Xboard 1999 Adventurecraft |
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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Tom - That will do it & is the cheapest option for good oil with high ZPPD.
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Link to Napa/oil |
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daddyo
Senior Member Joined: September-09-2008 Location: Austin, TX Status: Offline Points: 114 |
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I think this info is out of date on the zddp. The rotella single weights no longer have the higher amounts. waterdog (i think) did an analysis in another post and it's the 15-40 that has the higher amount now. want to say it was in the 1200ppm range. The single wt rotella was under 900, if i remember correctly. maybe he can comment.
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seacamper
Platinum Member Joined: June-24-2010 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1056 |
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How about the VR1 straight 40?
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1980 Ski Nautique Boat Bar
1988 Mastercraft Tristar Open Bow 1988 Mastercraft Tristar Closed Bow 1969 Seacamper Houseboat 1986 Harris Pontoon 2004 Seadoo GTX SC + Flydive Xboard 1999 Adventurecraft |
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skutsch
Grand Poobah Joined: June-19-2008 Location: Racine, WI Status: Offline Points: 2874 |
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Thats what I run (VR-1 40)as recommended in the manual (straight 40w). It has 1389 ppm ZDDP. Brad Penn 40W is a little cheaper if you can find it. It is1400 pom ZDDP. Both are right in the sweet spot.
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skutsch
Grand Poobah Joined: June-19-2008 Location: Racine, WI Status: Offline Points: 2874 |
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Oh that is VR-1 Racing. Usually in stock at Napa or they can order and have it next day. I also use the Napa gold filter. Its ranked high in a number of filter tests referenced here on CCF or in Consumer Reports. One stop shopping!
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seacamper
Platinum Member Joined: June-24-2010 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1056 |
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Thanks Guys. That was a very educational thread. So on a different note, Dexron Mercron lll is good to flush and replace the 20w in the 1:23 transmission? |
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1980 Ski Nautique Boat Bar
1988 Mastercraft Tristar Open Bow 1988 Mastercraft Tristar Closed Bow 1969 Seacamper Houseboat 1986 Harris Pontoon 2004 Seadoo GTX SC + Flydive Xboard 1999 Adventurecraft |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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yes, i recently pulled a borg apart and found the facings on the reverse clutch plates came right off, just as if it came unglued, this was a first and i couldnt isolate it to a plate problem. i did notice though the oil was a touch thicker and felt more of a lucas type oil maybe even a synthetic, whatever it was i felt it had an additive that made the plates unglue.
but for the borgs and the pcms, dexron/mercon or compatible |
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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seacamper
Platinum Member Joined: June-24-2010 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1056 |
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Thanks Eric, I was hoping you would chime in.
Tom |
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1980 Ski Nautique Boat Bar
1988 Mastercraft Tristar Open Bow 1988 Mastercraft Tristar Closed Bow 1969 Seacamper Houseboat 1986 Harris Pontoon 2004 Seadoo GTX SC + Flydive Xboard 1999 Adventurecraft |
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horkn
Platinum Member Joined: September-10-2007 Location: Cedarburg, Wi Status: Offline Points: 1511 |
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Kapla, last time I checked, most castrol gtx oil had enough zddp for flat tappets. As to why or if gt40 marine motors are not roller motors,I don't know. They should be. And if not you can buy a roller conversion kit.
The ford diesel oil has high levels of zddp too. If I ever get a gm powered boat, it will get ford oil, ford oil filters, and autolite plugs. That will help |
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78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior
GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
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kapla
Grand Poobah Joined: March-27-2008 Location: BA, Argentina Status: Offline Points: 6148 |
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Tom..I had to go the first page of the thread , back in 2009 to know what where you answering me..LOL...
I found here the VR-1 20w-50 and been using it since then..3 oil changes since rebuilt.... As for going roller on my 351w...nice upgrade but not likely to spend $500 to do it... |
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<a href="">1992 ski nautique
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13513 |
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I don't know when you checked but it's not shown anymore. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Kev, Don't worry, a Ford engine would NEVER give Tom any problems even if he ran water instead of oil in the crankcase! |
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horkn
Platinum Member Joined: September-10-2007 Location: Cedarburg, Wi Status: Offline Points: 1511 |
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Exactly. luc, yeah I saw that. As far as the zddp in castrol, if you look enough you can find the ratings. What I saw was that castrol across their line had very good numbers, better than most other oils. I'll see if I have those bookmarked on my PC. I definitely don’t have them on my android.... yet. |
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78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior
GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Due to all the fairly recent changes with oils, the documentation must be dated to back up your claims. You do not want to make the same mistake that was done earlier in this thread. It wouldn't help your image........again!!! |
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horkn
Platinum Member Joined: September-10-2007 Location: Cedarburg, Wi Status: Offline Points: 1511 |
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This was recent news regarding the castrol. I'm pretty sure I posted the link in a different thread. I never said anything in this thread that wasn't correct .....I've seen a few incorrect things posted by others though. |
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78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior
GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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Show us the data, or the link, but I think you are mistaken ...
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Come on Tom! You've got to do better than just the above!! Did you miss this:
ADD?
I agree - where's the data/link proof??? |
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