Rough 1993 Ski soft floor |
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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Posted: September-13-2011 at 2:56am |
I am freaking out tonight. I need your help to talk me off the ledge.
With apologies to my good friend in Australia, I thought I'd make my own version of this topic. I'm in the same boat as he is (pun intended). I mentioned before my little crack in the floor and if you've followed the 1997 SN soft floor thread (1997 SN soft floor) you can see where this is going. I took these pictures literally minutes ago. Here is the crack cut out: The water you can find by pressing on the foam: Guys (and gals?), to be honest I'm feeling very overwhelmed at the moment. How am I going to do this? If you look at the pictures of my floor, I think you can see the spots where the foam is dark, which means it is wet (when I peeled back the floor the first layer of foam is really black, likely mold, maybe 1/2 inch or so). I wonder if I can do this with my shady tree mechanic skills. What if I have to cut out the entire floor? I thought in a 1993 that I would not have to do this, but I'm guessing the entire underside of my boat is wet. Isn't the entire floor part of the structure of the boat? Isn't the floor bonded to the composite stringers? How does that work? Can I do this or am I just in way, way over my head? HELP!!!! |
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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That crack in the floor is about where I keep my anchor. Maybe that's how it got there?
Seeing water that close to the surface means there will be more below. Don't give yourself a coronary though. Here's what I'd do for both of these threads/boats assuming you have winter on the way: I would carefully support the boat on 4 or 5 points paying special attention to leveling the mains. The 5th point would be under the keel towards the front. Then I'd measure eveything and maybe make some templates so I could put everything back where it goes. From there, cut the floor out with a cut-off tool or a small circular saw set shallow and cut the floor out and remove the wet foam. I'd be very careful not to cut into the framework below. After all is cleaned up and prepped for new material(and assuming the structural parts are still structural), pour in the foam-level it, and put in a new floor. The key here is to make the new floor water tight and tough enough to take some abuse. Of course it's more complicated for an open bow, and I left out some details. All in all though, this should be much easier than a full stringer job. And yes, the floor is structural. It ties the boat together above the lower structure. |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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Greg, there is no way possible to make these floors water tight, these are some of the first plastic boats we are seeing but are starting to pop up and have a feeling there will be more to come. time will tell
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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Call me foolish, but I'm not willing to concede that yet. We'll see when I cut back into mine. |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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No heart attack needed, it has a little water and some soft foam, it is not like the seats are going to pull out or the engine is going to come unattached from the stringers. While the issue isnt exactly cosmetic, it is not the end of the world. Like greg said remove what isnt solid and dry and replace. Worst case scenario you do a horrible job and "gasp" the floor isnt perfectly level, or next time it needs new carpet it needs to be shored up again.. but no safety issues and no resale issues beyond what it is right now. If I had all the materials on hand I would be surprised it if took 3 weekends.. one to remove and dry one to foam, level, glass, one to recarpet and install interior.
If it scares you this is not a job I would worry about farming out to a competent boat shop.. unlike a stringer job where there arent very many places I would trust for such a job. |
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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I'm going to dig into this area that I discovered and see what I find. I'm feeling better today after sleeping on it. It is just foam and fiberglass. I'll work on supporting the boat better (more evenly) and start cutting away. It will feel great when this is done and I KNOW that the boat is solid and dry underneath.
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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Kevin - a couple of helpful hints for later... when you cut out the glass and the foam, cut the glass big enough to work easily, but if you can, leave some glass for the patch to cling to. since you're pouring back foam, the foam will support the center of the glass patch, but will also expand into the areas that are void spaces under the floor. When you get ready to patch, sand the floor back at a shallow enough angle that you can see each layer of glass. you'll want to try and patch layer for layer if you can, starting with a small patch that overlaps the old glass by about an inch. each layer patch will get an inch bigger, like laying a reverse cone (if the area is circular). Post lots of pictures! I am sure they will be helpful for the next guy who embarks on this repair!
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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to many variables on a boats history, i probably was refering to some of these 100 hour a year boats, weighed down, left out in the rain and never having the drain plug pulled....from what Ive seen it would be the majority.
someone pulled a boo boo in for a second go around, I watered my asphalt draining it for about 20 minutes...those are the ones im talking about |
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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storm34
Grand Poobah Joined: November-03-2008 Location: Dexter Iowa Status: Offline Points: 4492 |
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Well the good thing is that you can be one of the first (if not THE first) to go through and remove all the foam and put it back together on a composite boat.
I'd love to dig into our 96 and see whats under the floor just because I'm curious to how these things are holding up. You already have everything out of the boat anyway, so why not tackle this project now?! |
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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storm34, this is a good point. I showed the problem to my mom yesterday and she said, "Well, good thing you found out now when it is easy to get to." Moms are so smart. :)
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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I was curious as to the condition of the foam in my '89. It wasn't unusual to get some water pooling around the drivers seat when surfing - I still can't figure out where it comes from (sealed the rub rail already).
So last weekend I removed the drivers seat, used a long 3/8 drill bit & drilled thru the floor (next to stringer), down to the hull (stopped at the hull, of course.). The foam came up bone dry, also used a wood stick as a probe & also no moisture at all. I refoamed with great stuff & epoxied the spot. Now I can sleep better. |
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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storm34
Grand Poobah Joined: November-03-2008 Location: Dexter Iowa Status: Offline Points: 4492 |
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Kevin, I'm afraid you are entering uncharted territory (at least I've not seen this done yet.)
There are a few diagrams from the 39 brochure I believe, but nothing substantial. As mentioned above, it should be a relatively quick process to take the old floor up, remove the foam and get the new stuff back in the boat. If you haven't had any experience with glass before it's a really simple process. |
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storm34
Grand Poobah Joined: November-03-2008 Location: Dexter Iowa Status: Offline Points: 4492 |
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Hey Kevin, can't remember if you are going to have to reupholster but I saw a 90-93 motor box skin listed on Christine's in the clearance section. Scroll about half way down.
Might be worth a look. Christine's |
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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storm34, thanks! I had not seen that.
I'm into it now. Of course, I'm now thinking about the foam/no-foam issue. If I leave the foam out of my boat, how do I lay the floor back down? Doesn't the fiberglass need to "lay" on something to set up flat? Also, for anybody who has ever taken the foam out of their boat can you tell me if it is louder? I know that seems like a strange question, because boats are just noisy objects to begin with, but I'm curious. I'm leaning towards putting foam back in. My boat will never sit out in the rain or stay on the water for months unless I suddenly become rich and buy a home on a lake. Of note, not all of the foam is wet. The top 2" is wet, but down near the hull some of the foam really seems to just be dry. I'm definitely pulling out a lot of wet foam, but not ALL of it is wet. Good news: I found a trailer. Going to go pick it up in a couple of weeks. :) |
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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Dude you are going to foam your boat.. and then fiberglass over the foam. The foam/no foam debate has nothing to do with a 93 plus boat. you have a small repair to do pull out what is wet, foam over it, level the foam, and fiberglass over it.
To make that boat no foam you would remove all foam and then need to put down a deck of some sort.. what would you use.. plywood.. no coosa.. it would be rediculously expensive and a ton more effort to get you what you have now which is an all composite boat. |
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Luchog
Grand Poobah Joined: April-17-2007 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 2135 |
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you could laminate the floor over a glass like hassbeen showed on his build and then attach it to the boat.
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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OK. New question:
Why isn't my floor flat underneath? This was not something I expected. As I dug into my little hole (it is about 6" wide and a foot long now) I discovered that my floor has channels, if you will, and thicker areas all over the place up front. I thought the floor was just a thin layer of glass laid flat over the stringers. It is not. The channels run side to side and fore-aft. Essentially it is a "T" shaped structure were the top of the T is my floor. Is this COMPLETELY different than a pre-1993 boat? |
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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AussieNorts
Groupie Joined: March-10-2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 82 |
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Kevin,
That is a new one for me, from what i saw underneath mine the floor looked flat. Just layed on top of the stringers, however i did not dig as aft as you. |
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Correct craft.....is there any other boat?
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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Pictures please.... I would exPect some structure for the seats to attach to under there, the pre 93 boats had plywood to screw into up front.
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lewy2001
Grand Poobah Joined: March-19-2008 Location: NSW Australia Status: Offline Points: 2234 |
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Kevin this picture from the 97 brochure which shows the jig holding the stringers in place gives you a bit of an idea what is below the floor. Aussie also found some cross bracing between the stringers. Get some pictures while you have the foam out.
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If you're going through hell, keep going
89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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Let me see if I can get my camera down there to take some pictures. It will be hard, but I think I can figure out a way to do it.
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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Here is the hole I have cut in my boat floor in search of wet foam under the crack that had been created by the seat frame.
I poked my camera down in the cut out. This is what the view looks like looking forward towards the bow. The "ridge" on the right (looks like it is in the center in this photo) is attached to the floor. It is sort of an upside-down U, although I can't get to the other side of the U because of the frame (wall on the right). This is looking aft. You can see the ridge here on the left. You'll also see on the right the front end of a composite stringer. More on that in a second. You can also see a ridge right in front of you that runs side to side, and there is a thick section of floor just aft of that ridge. |
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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For the curious, the nose (for lack of a better term) of the ICS is plainly seen here:
This is a view of the thick area which is under my knees in the photo above. And yes, this area doesn't flex at all. It might be reinforcement for seats, but seems a little aft for that. It would more likely be where you place your feet. As far back as I have felt thus far the floor stays thick. If the "regular" floor (what I have cut out) is about 1/16" thick or so, I'd say that the built-up area is about 1/4" thick. So it is quite significant. Steve from Australia - what do you use to dig out foam? It is not easy to get out of there. Some of the foam is what I'd call dry, but much of it is still wet too. I have poked a screwdriver into the foam going aft and it sunk to the handle, so I have a ways aft to go before I get to a brace that goes side to side. Some more shots: A view to the side (inside towards the middle): |
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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Any thoughts about what I should do next? I'm thinking of trying to chip out as much foam as I can from here going aft and see if the floor gets "thin" again at some point. I will keep plugging away going forward as well and hope to find only dry foam or the bow of my boat at some point.
The hard part is that I don't know where else I should dig now. I have other spots where the floor flexes. Should I cut in there and see what I find or ignore it? By the way, once I scrape away the foam the glass looks good. It is glass after all, so it can say wet forever with no ill effects. Just to be clear, my main concern is that I don't know if I should venture into this floor too much with all these ridges and thick areas. What if that thick area is honeycomb or something like that? I'd hate to slice into that. I also created a picture with more explanation of what you are looking at. |
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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AussieNorts
Groupie Joined: March-10-2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 82 |
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Kevin,
I would not worry too much about the other soft spots, it can seem soft, but what i noticed was that some of those areas in my boat is where the floor was not glued to stringer anymore. I used a small gardening spade about 4inch wide, it seemed to work well, if you have no delam of glass under there i would dig aft and forward till you hit a crossmember and if still no delam, pour the foam and stitch it up. |
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Correct craft.....is there any other boat?
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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A gardening spade sounds like a really good idea! Thanks for that.
This crack was the only area where there was an open wound in the floor. The other holes we all there only for screws, and they had screws in them so I am assuming that most of those didn't let water in. |
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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Kevin - check this post....might be something for you if you could make the distance work
Slipping transmission thread |
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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I finally got a chance to dig into my foam a little more tonight. It's kind of weird and I'm looking for more thoughts from the experts here. The foam is wet, but not soaked. Is ANY wet foam bad? I'm beginning to wonder if this is worth the effort. The foam is still rigid and is quite hard to dig out because I'm working in such a small area.
The floor in my boat appears to be quite thick in many places. There are 3" disks (for lack of a better word) where the floor is thin. The problem is that there is no way I could dig out all the foam with a tiny three-inch hole as my access point. Do I need to go after ALL the water? If the foam is still rigid, but still wet, is that a real problem? |
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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uk1979
Platinum Member Joined: June-13-2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1422 |
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I wonder if you where to rig up a shop vac to the hole seal all around the pipe and switch on for a while it would draw the moisture out the foam into the void which can then be soaked up with rags.
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Lets have a go
56 Starflite 77 SN 78 SN 80 BFN |
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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Wow. That's an interesting idea. I don't think you'd ever get all the water doing that, and it might take a really long time since the water essentially leeches very slowly in the foam. Still, it might be worth a try just to see what happens.
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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