Shaft slipping Out? |
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The Lake ![]() Platinum Member ![]() ![]() Joined: May-13-2005 Location: Lk Winnebago MO Status: Offline Points: 1157 |
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Hey guys, I need a little help. I noticed the last time out in the boat a chirping sound coming from the transmission area--in forward gear only. Otherwise the transmission is still shifting smooth. Fluids were freshly changed this spring and levels are good. So . . . I started checking the underwater gear, and aft of the strut I noticed the shaft was shinier than anywhere else, about 3/8 of an inch. Then I looked up by the coupler and I noticed a groove (for a spline I assume) going into the coupler.
Has anyone ever had a shaft begin to work out? Not having had the shaft out before, I'm not real sure how it lines up in the coupler. I have a 318 reverse rotation, BW 1:1 with a Acme 540 prop. Any help is appreciated, thanks. Chuck |
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Jim_In_Houston ![]() Platinum Member ![]() Joined: September-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1120 |
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When I replaced my prop shaft (after running the '68 onto a sand bar - ugh) the replacement shaft did not come with dimples drilled into it for the coupler set screws to seat into. I could see nothing that would hold the shaft in during a hard reverse.
I do not know the history of your boat but for what ever reason when you are reversing the thrust of the prop is pulling your shaft out. You have to fix it or you could lose your rudder, prop, and strut. DavidF had an experience with this. See if you can click on thisto read more details about the subject. |
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Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang
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The Lake ![]() Platinum Member ![]() ![]() Joined: May-13-2005 Location: Lk Winnebago MO Status: Offline Points: 1157 |
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Well, I did it now, I WD 40'd the set screws, let them set, then tried to back them out. I thought the first one came out fine, the second one broke off at the head with maybe an 1/8 of an inche of thread extruding. Looking at the first one, it appears as if it broke off inside the coupler. My plan now is to borrow an extractor and see if I can get 'em out.
Hold up some warning signs if you see them. Thanks, Chuck. Not so fun to have the boat in the garage on the 4th. |
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Jim_In_Houston ![]() Platinum Member ![]() Joined: September-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1120 |
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I don't quite understand. The set screws are allen type screws right? Requiring an allen wrench? Did your set screws have heads on them? Hex heads? Are your set screws 180 Degs apart or 90 Deg apart?
Since your shaft has been pulled outward, the tips of the set screws are probably gaulded into the shaft. I hate to advise people to apply heat to parts in a boat bilge because it is dangerous and you really have to know what you are doing in order to avoid a massive problem. So I will not recommend you heat the coupler to expand it. (But that is what I would do.) One trick that works well is to heat the entire part that has a broken screw in it, to very hot (a dull red color) and pour water on the screw only. The screw will contract allowing it to be extracted easily if done while the parts is still hot (a dull red kind of hot). This type of heating requires an acetylene torch to get enough heat on the part quickly. In this case, The shafts on both sides of the coupler should be wrapped in soaking wet rags to prevent the heat from transfering into the tranny and the packing seal. The entire bilge area under the coupler should be covered in fire prevention material. There must be no gas or oil fumes present. If your set screws are allen type they will be too hard to drill I think. If they are hex head type bolts you may be able to drill them out. If you are not savvy to all of this, or you do not have all of the required tools, at this point, you may come out ahead to tow your boat to a local shop and ask them to remove the set screws. A small machine shop might do it for you for a small charge. Maybe even find a machine shop capable of machining you a new shaft if needed and let them extract the bolts. |
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Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang
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Jim_In_Houston ![]() Platinum Member ![]() Joined: September-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1120 |
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Another DIY option at this point is to hack saw the shaft right behind the coupler and replace the shaft and the coupler with new.
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Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang
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The Lake ![]() Platinum Member ![]() ![]() Joined: May-13-2005 Location: Lk Winnebago MO Status: Offline Points: 1157 |
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Thanks Jim,
The set screws are not allen; they are a square head, not hex, machine screw. They are located 180 degrees on the coupler. The heads had a small hole through them with a wire wraping around the coupler and through the bolt heads, obviously the wire wasn't needed as of late as the screws were really set up. I don't have an acetylene torch, so I'm not thinking I want to go that route. If I try to drill and extract (without heat) and fail, am I making a tougher job for the machine shop? If I hack the shaft off, will I be able to find a new coupler, or will I need to salvage the old one (meaning still getting the screws out). Thanks again, Chuck |
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Mercrewser ![]() Groupie ![]() Joined: December-06-2005 Status: Offline Points: 90 |
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Use PB blaster, and try the extractor set. I would by my own, becuase you may end up breaking them. If worst comes to worst, cut and replace the shaft and coupler, and use loct*te on the new set screws. This will keep them from backing out, but also prevent them from seizing in the coupler. I am not experienced enough to do the heat method, I'd rather cut and replace. I think the extractor set will do it though, especially if you drill the screws all the way down to the shaft. Get some good t*tanium bits.
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1969 Chris Craft Commander SS #39
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GottaSki ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: April-21-2005 Location: NE CT Status: Offline Points: 3357 |
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If you break an extracter in there, its too hardened to drill out... I say overdrill the fawkers out, use a drill-stop collet to prevent you from going too deep. Tap the coupler setsrews to the next size, dimple the shaft with the drill so the new setscrews grab, and be done. It its trashed anyway, go with a new double-taper shaft and coupler. |
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
River Rat to Mole |
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Jim_In_Houston ![]() Platinum Member ![]() Joined: September-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1120 |
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You should plan on buying a new coupler at this point anyway. I think you can buy just the half that fits on your prop side of your shaft. After the 4th when a lot of folks return you will get a lot of good comments about the coupler.
I really don't think you will have any success trying to remove those bolts. I think they are buried into the shaft sideways just enough to make things difficult. I also don't think it's frozen threads that are creating the problem. Like I said I think when the shaft moved back the ends of the screws became buried into the shaft. You make be able to drill them out if the broken end is flat enough for you to get the drill started. Use a center punch and large hammer to dink a dimple into the center of the end of the broken bolt so the drill will have a "hole" to ride in to get started. Use a lot light oil of cutting oil on the drill bit to keep it cool while drilling. Like someone above said, if you break the extractor off into the bolt your only path will be hack sawing. Another appraoch: You may be able to hack saw the coupler and split it open slightly with a chisel once you saw completely through one side. This would allow you to forget about the bolts, save your shaft, and just buy a new coupler or coupler half. Maybe Dremel has a tool that will saw through the coupler half. This might be the best path!!!!! With a Dremel you may be able to cut a wedge right out of the coupler half to let the coupler fall off. What does a good Dremel tool cost? $30.00 ? |
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Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang
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Jim_In_Houston ![]() Platinum Member ![]() Joined: September-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1120 |
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After reading all of the posts, I kinda agree with Gottaski. If you can drill the bolts out using a drill the same size as the bolt hole you should be able to pull you shaft out. USe a collet (or spacer) on the drill bit so the drill does not go deeper than the thickness of the coupler. If you don't have taps just buy a new coupler half. If you have to buy a whole coupler you may able to get the exact replacement and just don't use the half that is already on the tranny side of the shaft - use the old one that is still on the shaft.
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Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang
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62 wood ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: February-19-2005 Location: NW IL Status: Offline Points: 4527 |
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Chuck,
"Damd ol boats".... just about enough to make a preacher cuss! ![]() I was also in dry-dock over the weekend...my 64s got a boken strut..Hope to get her going next weekend....Good luck with your broken bolt... like they said above, dont break an extractor...NOT fun! JIH, would it be worth trying a couple of raps on the prop end of the shaft with a block of wood and hammer to try and drive it back in the coupling a little? Maybe relieve some of the pressure on the locknuts? We gotta hang in there Chuck! These are still some of the coolest old tugs made! |
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The Lake ![]() Platinum Member ![]() ![]() Joined: May-13-2005 Location: Lk Winnebago MO Status: Offline Points: 1157 |
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An update, I've been drilling, drilling, driiling, using oil and t*tanium bits, starting wiht small bits and working my way up. I've got a pretty good bite with an extracter on one, but that bolt is not budging yet, worried I'll break if off. I'll try Steve's advice to knock the shaft back a bit.
I'll check with skidim to see if they carry a coupler like mine in case this one gets trashed. Jim, in case I have to replace the shaft: do you have the name of the guy you got your shaft from? I'm going to try once more this evening, then see if I can locate a machine shop that will give it a whirl. I'm trying to figure out how this happend. I didn't hit anything, the stut, the prop, the rudder appear undamaged. The greatest tork in reverse is unloading off the bunks. I did start running the 540 prop late last year. Or, maybe like me, parts are just getting weak. We had a friend visiting yesterday, he thought the boat looked good in the garage. Chuck |
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Jim_In_Houston ![]() Platinum Member ![]() Joined: September-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1120 |
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I'll see if I can find the receipt from the guy that cut my shaft. I found him by searching on Ebay on "Prop* Shaft"
As to how it happpened - who knows? Be happy you are smart enough to spot it. That puts you light years ahead of most of us. A 90 Deg grinder can get that coupling off in about 2 minutes without damaging your shaft - a machine shop should have one of those. |
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Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang
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David F ![]() Platinum Member ![]() Joined: June-11-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1770 |
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I chuckle everytime I read the t*tle of this post...is it just me
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The Lake ![]() Platinum Member ![]() ![]() Joined: May-13-2005 Location: Lk Winnebago MO Status: Offline Points: 1157 |
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OK, I should have said "drive shaft."
I talked with Vince from skidim, he's concerned about the damage that's already been done to my coupler and shaft, and reusing may cause difficulties in alignment, so I'm may have to go the new drive shaft route--probably make '79 happy, I'm sure the drive shaft if original anyway, I have no idea how many hours are on it. |
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62 wood ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: February-19-2005 Location: NW IL Status: Offline Points: 4527 |
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Chuck,
Technically its a "prop" shaft ![]() I think my 64 is back on track...got the strut and rudder on tonight! Also glad to hear your wifes getting st*tches out next week..hope she is on the mend!!Give her our best! Gonna miss you "guys" at GL! ![]() |
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Jim_In_Houston ![]() Platinum Member ![]() Joined: September-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1120 |
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Lake, if your shaft is straight there is no need to replace. Did you get it out? How?
A good machine shop can check it for straightness and straighten it if needed. |
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Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang
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The Lake ![]() Platinum Member ![]() ![]() Joined: May-13-2005 Location: Lk Winnebago MO Status: Offline Points: 1157 |
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Nope, had to put the boat on the back burner for lots of work this week, and tyring to get my wife literally back on her feet. It will be next week before I can address it. Still cannot get the set screws out. So, I'm trying to find a machine shop. A couple of the guys I've called don't want to mess with it. I definitely want to get it out without cutting it. I'm pretty sure it's straight, but I'll check it out anyway.
Will there be any trouble sliding the shaft through the strut bearing? |
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GottaSki ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: April-21-2005 Location: NE CT Status: Offline Points: 3357 |
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If there is, its bent.
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
River Rat to Mole |
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Jim_In_Houston ![]() Platinum Member ![]() Joined: September-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1120 |
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Polish off any burrs you create when removing the coupler before you pull the shaft out. I think the reason you can't find anyone interested in helping you is because it's a $50.00 job with a perceived $9000.00 downside risk. You may have to just trailer the boat into someone's parking lot and show them the problem. A sympathetic shop owner will help. Grinder |
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Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang
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The Lake ![]() Platinum Member ![]() ![]() Joined: May-13-2005 Location: Lk Winnebago MO Status: Offline Points: 1157 |
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Gee Jim, that Grinder is pretty inexpensive, I wish I was a little closer to the gulf, I'd just tow the boat right over. OK, I can take a hint.
$9,000? 1969 Nautique--priceless, even sitting in the garage. |
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62 wood ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: February-19-2005 Location: NW IL Status: Offline Points: 4527 |
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Chuck,
After you get the Mrs "on her feet", take a "little" vacation and bring her up to NW IL...I would be glad to help you... I believe if we put a little heat from the torch to the broken bolt area, we could get her out with an extractor.... in the mean time..keep pouring the "Blaster" to the bolt..make sure its facing up, so gravity will work with you. Now start making those "vacation" plans ![]() |
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rmcdonald ![]() Groupie ![]() Joined: December-30-2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 71 |
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Hi
I had exactly the same problem getting my prop shaft out of the coupling. Two square head grub screws A tungsten Carbide drill bit will do the job. If you can not get a hold of one use a masonry drill bit. The end of a masonry drill has a tungsten tip. I used the bench grinder fashion the tip into something that resembles a steel cutting tip. It is a really ugly solution, but it only cost me $5.00 for the drill bit. It sort of chips the grub screw away. I re-used the coupling by drilling and tapping 3 new holes at 120 degrees apart. I used socket headed grub screws, one of which now screws down to the key. Regards Rob McDonald |
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Jim_In_Houston ![]() Platinum Member ![]() Joined: September-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1120 |
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Never heard them called grub screws. Must be a down under thing.
They are made hard on purpose - so they don't deform when you tighten them into the shaft. They are harder then the shaft or the coupler and harder then most drill bits. Usually by the time you have drilled them out your drill bit has walked all around and wobbled out your original set screw holes beyond use. In fact, one trick is to drill a larger hole right along side the set screw and then use a center punch to drive the set screw out of its hole into the larger hole you just drilled along side.(I have been there a lot of times in my young mechanic days). |
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Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang
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rmcdonald ![]() Groupie ![]() Joined: December-30-2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 71 |
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Hi Jim
I agree, I like your solution though. As I said my solution was ugly but it worked. A carbide drill bit will get through a high tensile screw or bolt. Grub screw, is a screw that has no head, meaning it can sit below the surface. I would have to look up the Machineries Handbook to see if it’s an acceptable term to use in the States. Regards Rob |
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79nautique ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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set screw is the term your looking for.
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KENO ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11050 |
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Well, I'd never heard of a grub screw,always called them set screws, so being naturally inquisitive I did a search using my favorite search engine and whaddya know, a set screw and a grub screw seem to be the same thing.
Probably depends on whether you're from the USA or the rest of the world. I'm learnin' something all the time. keno |
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Jim_In_Houston ![]() Platinum Member ![]() Joined: September-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1120 |
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Yeh, isn't the world an interesting place? Differnet names for the same thing. Example: I always thought KENO was the name of a game.
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Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang
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KENO ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11050 |
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Me too
keno |
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The Lake ![]() Platinum Member ![]() ![]() Joined: May-13-2005 Location: Lk Winnebago MO Status: Offline Points: 1157 |
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Back in the water again!
Finally had time to get to it; decided to go with a new double taper shaft and we were able to test it out this evening . . . very smooth. I was worried about alignment being off, but it seems to be right on. And, I'm not going to have to worry about a stuck coupler again (I hope). Thanks for all the advise, once again CCFans came through for me. I'm taking some vacation time next week, definitely wanting to get a lot of skiing in. Chuck |
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