hot coil/ballast resistor trouble |
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nautiquelover1988
Groupie Joined: August-01-2012 Location: lake tahoe CA Status: Offline Points: 58 |
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Posted: August-21-2012 at 9:12pm |
So im almost there, getting my beloved 1988 sn2001 back to its normal self after having it destroyed by someone other than myself who was using it. Ive now narrowed down my idle/ stalling out problem to the coil getting way to hot. Ive changed both needles and seats in the carb, new cap and rotor, new plugs and what i thought was a coil that wld work that isnt. The coil i got was a cheap 34$ accel 8440c coil i believe im not at the boat right now but it was a cheap oil filled one and my coil mount lays it on its side which i hear is not good for an oil coil. Anyway, i decided to order an msd blaster 8222 epoxy filled coil that will be here tomorow that im hopeing will soove ky problem and stay cooler. Im also curious about the wiring for the ballast resistor. Ive seen different pictures where the purple and red wires are hooked to seperate sides of the resistor and have also seen them where they are hooked to the same side with nothing on the left side if standing in the back of the boat looking at the motor as mine are, so which is the correct way to make sure my resistor is working how it shld and the coil is not getting to many volts. Ive took some pictures of how mine is wired and will try to post then but i never seem to have any luck posting them on here. I also am curious of the resistors can go bad, i ordered a new one for the new msd coil but it just doesnt look like something that can even go bad to me. Pleaseeee help
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nautiquelover1988
Groupie Joined: August-01-2012 Location: lake tahoe CA Status: Offline Points: 58 |
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Correction* the cheap oil filled coil i am swapping for the msd blaster is an accel 8140c.
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TX Foilhead
Grand Poobah Joined: February-01-2009 Location: Kingsland TX Status: Offline Points: 2076 |
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The standard wiring diagram that gets posted once a week should be fine and can probably be found in the reference section. There should be wires on each side of the coil, purple from the resistor to positive, grey to the tach. That's mine with a electronic Mallory distributor, been too long since I've had points to remember what was there.
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nautiquelover1988
Groupie Joined: August-01-2012 Location: lake tahoe CA Status: Offline Points: 58 |
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I know there has to be wires in both sides of the coil, my question was about the ballast resistor and weather the purple and red wires from the coil should be on one side of it or each on a seperate side of it.
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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If you have points, then the wires need to be on both sides of the ballast resistor. Having the wires on one side is a way to bypass it, only used with electronic ignition. I don't know the colors, if you search the site, I am sure you can find the wiring diagram.
Good luck |
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
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TX Foilhead
Grand Poobah Joined: February-01-2009 Location: Kingsland TX Status: Offline Points: 2076 |
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So you need to figure out what you have, if the ballast resistor is there then it's probably needed unless you've changed something. Coils are the same thing some need the resistor some don't, depends on what the distributor wants. Having had a boat with all kinds of different things going on, I prefer to keep it simple like the original diagram that way it's easier to trouble shoot because I'm not trying to figure out what I changed.
I'm still going with a bad coil and guessing you have the same set up that came in the kit, the hand drawn pic from LKG is how mine is wired and I have the PCM replacement kit for the Pro Tec. |
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nautiquelover1988
Groupie Joined: August-01-2012 Location: lake tahoe CA Status: Offline Points: 58 |
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Im almost positive i have points, how do i know for sure? Ive looked at pictures of the protec conversion kits and dont see any of that stuff on my boat.
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TX Foilhead
Grand Poobah Joined: February-01-2009 Location: Kingsland TX Status: Offline Points: 2076 |
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My bad, replying to 2 posts about the same issue, disregard the ProTec info. You can pull the cap on the dizzy to see if you have points. If you do then the easiest thing to do is wire in the ballast resistor and get a coil without an internal resistor, then you can check the wiring and follow the standard chart about how it should be.
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nautiquelover1988
Groupie Joined: August-01-2012 Location: lake tahoe CA Status: Offline Points: 58 |
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Pull the dizzy? The cap of the rotor where all the plugs are connected to?? Sorry im not to mechanically inclined...i just replaced the cap on the rotor and there are metal points underneith it, are these the points you are talking about?
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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yep, thems the ones |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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Here's the diagram in question:
It's a little confusing, because Tim drew it so that it could apply to both a points or an electronic. To bring more confusing to the party, the new Mallory Electronics are wired similar to the old points, and the dizzy has three wires instead of 2. I believe the points style needs resisted voltage to the coil. |
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nautiquelover1988
Groupie Joined: August-01-2012 Location: lake tahoe CA Status: Offline Points: 58 |
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Update: this morning i went and picked up the new coil, an epoxy filled msd blaster 8222. I took it to the boat and installed it. Went to fire it up and could not get it to start, sprayed some starter fluid and could still barley get it started, got it once but kept dieing on me. Everytime i turned the key it wld make a whining noise and barley turn the belts. so i took off the newly replaced distributor cap and as i expected the rotor was broken. Took the rotor down to napa and also realozed the the two week old broken rotor was not the same as the one i took off of it when i replafed the dizzy cap. The guys at napa were able to pull up the correct one and had it in stock. Went back to the boat and installed it. At this point i had the purple wire on one side of the ballast resistor and red wire on the other side because the new msd coil required it to be resisted and not bypassed. Went to start it and the whining noise went away but it still wld not fire. I felt where the purple wire was connected on the resistor and it was burning hot leading me to believe that the resistor went bad. I pulled the resistor off and it was extremely corroded, cracked, rusted and looked as if it was deterierating on the back. I put it back on and connected the purple and red wire to the same side of the resistor to bypass it and the boat fired up instantly with no hesitation or starter fluid or whining noises. I only ran it this way very briefly because of msd's warning to not run that particular coil on a points ignition without being resisted and also because the motor was shaking while it was running and the volt meter on the dash was shaking back and forth just over 12 which seemed way to high to me. So ordered the msd ballast resistor and am hopeing that with that in place and the red and purple wires on opposite sides it will work and even everything out...any imput????.
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nautiquelover1988
Groupie Joined: August-01-2012 Location: lake tahoe CA Status: Offline Points: 58 |
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The msd instructions call for a .8 ohm resistor but in the ford 351 marine parts manual it says a 1.5 ohm so which is the one i shld use. If the boat was at 12volts without being resisted is the .8 ohm msd resistor going to be enough.?
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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I don't think you can go wrong with the MSD resistor/coil combo. When the engine is running the electrical system is typically 14V, BTW.
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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If your using a MSD coil why would you go against what they tell you to use with their coil? You are reducing the voltage to their coil and nothing else. As to the shaking, you need to check your firing order again
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nautiquelover1988
Groupie Joined: August-01-2012 Location: lake tahoe CA Status: Offline Points: 58 |
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The engine didnt start shakeing until the coil was changed so i cant see how the firing order would have got changed. Is there a diagram anywhere for the firing order??
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TX Foilhead
Grand Poobah Joined: February-01-2009 Location: Kingsland TX Status: Offline Points: 2076 |
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Look for the tag on the motor, it should have the proper firing order. Sounds like your heading down the right path, get the correct resistor in there and you might want to take a new set of points since something in the dizzy may have been damaged from the other things that weren't working properly, not a bad idea to carry a spare even if you don't need them now. The resistor is protecting the dizzy from excessive voltage and voltage spikes.
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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Don, sorry to argue, but the resistor is not there to protect dizzy against voltage spikes.
It is there because at low RPMs, the points stay closed a high percentage of the time & the coil sees more current than when the engine is running high RPMs. With that higher % duty cycle of current, the coil can get too hot without something to limit the current. The ballast resistor protects the coil, not the dizzy. With some EI's (not all) the current is limited electronically & that is why some systems have you bypass the resistor. |
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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The ballast resister protects both the points and the coil to some extent, but not against voltage spikes.
If you move to an electronic ignition, it may or may not need the protection depending on the brand and type but if you keep the coil then you should keep the resistor. The internal resistance of the coil is the biggest driver of what the resistance of the resistor needs to be so luckily you now have the one that matches the coil. I would make sure the inside of the cap wasnt damaged by the incorrect rotor.. and double and triple check the spark plug wire order. The ignition timing is determined by the position of the rotor relative to the cap.. if your rotor had interference it could have easily moved either the body of the distributor, or wore out the rotational locating feature of the cap… so long story short your timing could be off. But check the cap for damage and the firing order first. |
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nautiquelover1988
Groupie Joined: August-01-2012 Location: lake tahoe CA Status: Offline Points: 58 |
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Ok, terrible morning. As everyone said, the firing order was printed on my engine tag and it said 18456273...i was also able to find a diagram for the motor and distributor with the cylinder numbers and where they go on the distributor cap which also matched my firing order. When i got to the boat this morning the wires which it has been firing with were not in that order (i was also stupid enough not to remeber how it was before i switched it to what the correct firing order should be). I switched it to the 18456273 according to the diagram and could not get it to fire. Does anyone else know a firing order that will work for a 1988 sn 2001 with ford pcm 351. The only possible thing i can think of is that yesterday when i ran it with the new msd coil for 20 minutes without having it resisted is that the coil fried without being resisted like the coil instructions said. Cld it really have fried the brand new coil that quickly and easily tho? Again pleaseeeee help
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Have you checked for spark again? Is the rotor pointing to the #1 wire/plug when the #1 cylinder is on the compression stroke? Have you Ohm'd out the primary and secondary windings on on the coil?
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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Maybe this will help a little? Keep in mind, your rotor turns counter clockwise, regardless of rotation. The exact position of the #1 depends on how the dizzy is set up, but the wires relation to one another is important.
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TX Foilhead
Grand Poobah Joined: February-01-2009 Location: Kingsland TX Status: Offline Points: 2076 |
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Brian, hopefully I'm going to run into you one of these days so you can straighten up my wiring. I just try to hide it all and keep the outside of the boat shiny so nobody will notice the rats nest.
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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Yeah Don, it would be great to come down to Texas at some point to do some foiling.
Those wire separators are Mallory Marine, I found them on Jegs or one of those. My brother found the kit where you put a little plastic kit with each number right on the wire. I used Paint.net to enhance the picture, but if you look close you can see the little white label clips. Makes it easy to keep track. |
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nautiquelover1988
Groupie Joined: August-01-2012 Location: lake tahoe CA Status: Offline Points: 58 |
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Brian you are a life saver!!!!!! I was able to get my firing order back on track ALL thanks to your picture and picked up the ballast resistor this morning. The new coil is staying cool, i just idled around the lake for half hour and not once did it sound like it was gnna die or flood out. Thank you soooooo much brian and everyone else!
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Braedon,
It's fantastic that you got it running! Have you submitted pictures and some text for the diaries yet? |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Good learning experence for you and saved you some money if you had decided to give up and taken it to someone. But you stuck with it and figured it out.There are some great people here that can help you thru almost anything
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