Boat dies while accelerating |
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tbeard
Senior Member Joined: April-26-2012 Location: Fort Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 379 |
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Posted: September-08-2012 at 8:25pm |
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My 88 BFN has stalled 4 times this summer for no reason! While pulling a skier up the boat will loose all electrical power and engine will die completely...... with no warning. (It always does this while accelerating with a skier.....under a load) This may be a coincidence.
To restart the boat I push the in dash circuit breaker off and again for on. Then the boat will start like normal, and it will not act up again for a few weeks. I am curious if anyone has had a similar problem and knows what is causing the problem or are there some things that I should check. For trouble shooting I thought I would start with replace the circuit breaker in the dash and the one behind the engine. |
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Thanks.......Tom
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pepatrick
Senior Member Joined: July-26-2012 Location: Cumming, GA Status: Offline Points: 102 |
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Yes..I had this exact same problem. I replaced the ground wired as my gauges were bouncing all over the place. Replaced the ignition breaker (the culprit) and rewired under the dash. I have since pulled my old ignition breaker apart and cleaned it out. I used some dielectric grease on it and it appears to be ok now. It is back in the boat and the new one is in the spare parts drawer.
Philip |
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tbeard
Senior Member Joined: April-26-2012 Location: Fort Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 379 |
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Thanks Philip...So you pulled the in dash circit breaker for the ignition and cleaned it? I guess the ignition system is sending a electrical surge that trips the breaker. So with the breaker being 24 years old I guess it becomes easier to trip?
I have the same issue with my gages bouncing.....this winter I plan to re wire the dash. |
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Thanks.......Tom
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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The alternator will not create a "surge". Get the VOM out and start checking the volts and yes on getting some bigger wiring both + and - up to the dash. Who told you about the "surge" issue? I caution you to listen to the person who told you about a voltage spike!! |
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tbeard
Senior Member Joined: April-26-2012 Location: Fort Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 379 |
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Thanks.....Would you run bigger wire from the Battery and Engine to the dash? Nautique parts sell the circut breakers so I will order one Monday. After ski season I plan to re do the dash.
Hopefully the replacement of the breaker will fix the problem of boat dying and the rewire will be just an overall improvement of the system. |
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Thanks.......Tom
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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Check me Pete(and expand if you like):
As resistance increases, the current is reduced. In this case, resistance = corrosion. I=V/R |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Greg, You're close but I'll change the wording. As resistance increases from ether too small wiring to handle the current or corrosion, the voltage drops. Then with the voltage drop, the current (amps/watts) increases compounding the problem. In Tom's case, the voltage readings will tell the story. He should get a reading at the battery and then under the dash. This will indicate the drop. Circuit breakers do go bad especially the cheap ones that the factory installed. Even cycling them a few times will weaken the bimetallic spring/contact inside. He needs to check the load on that ignition breaker. A decent VOM will have a 20 amp setting. It needs to be put in series in the circuit to get the reading. Both the coil and the electric choke are powered up off that breaker. |
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tbeard
Senior Member Joined: April-26-2012 Location: Fort Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 379 |
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I am terrible at electrical troubleshooting and analysis, so in simple terms is this what I need to do.
1. With boat running get the voltage readings off the battery. 2. Get same readings off the wire connector on the ignition circuit breaker, coil and electrical choke....while boat is running. 3.If there is a significant drop in volts replace the wires. (I will post the readings next week when I bring the boat home) 4. Replace the ignition circuit breaker for good practice. |
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Thanks.......Tom
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Tom, Yes, get us the voltage readings. Even better would be the amp reading that's going through the ignition breaker. |
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tbeard
Senior Member Joined: April-26-2012 Location: Fort Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 379 |
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OK....Give me a week or two to get the boat home and get started on it. Thanks Pete, Greg and Philip
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Thanks.......Tom
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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Thanks Pete. I get the equation and the math...it's the translation into real world applications that I'm sorting out. It's all the fault of some guy named Grob. |
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pepatrick
Senior Member Joined: July-26-2012 Location: Cumming, GA Status: Offline Points: 102 |
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In my case..it was not tripping the breaker...I think corrosion was not allowing for a good connection. When I turned on the blower, bilge pump or nav lights my real voltage (volt meter) would drop to below 10 volts. The engine would run, but the gauges would jump all over the place. When I would run full throttle it would run great for a minute or so and then die. I would have to use pliers to start it through the solenoid and it would just turn over. After it cooled off for a while it would start back up. I also learned later on if I banged on the ignition breaker it would start up with the key. Once I rewired and cleaned up the breaker, I have not had a problem with the boat since. I am getting about 13.7 volts +- (volt meter) when running now. I am getting very little drop if any when nav lights, bilge or blower is on. Some times the blower will drop it a little, but not enough to worry about.
If you have any electrical back ground, these boats are not that difficult to rewire. It just takes time on your back under the dash. I pulled the front seat out and loaded up with blade connectors, ring connectors and lots of 14 gauge black, red and purple wire. The PO of the boat already had + and - terminal blocks screwed to the back of the dash so that made wiring considerably easier. |
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pepatrick
Senior Member Joined: July-26-2012 Location: Cumming, GA Status: Offline Points: 102 |
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I think the 89 BFNs might be a little easier to wire as the dash wiring may be more easily accessible. The 86 SN was just easier to lie on the back and wire away...
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tbeard
Senior Member Joined: April-26-2012 Location: Fort Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 379 |
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I looked under the dash a while back and did see a black terminal strip with blacvk wires attached to it. Mabey CC or a previous owner installed that. The wires looked small.
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Thanks.......Tom
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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What's the load? Without knowing the amp load, just saying the "wires looked small" is meaningless. |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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I maintain that Pete is still all wet on this. There is more waste heat but not more current created from the increased resistance of any of these loads. The reality is not different than the equations. Breakers get weak from internal corrosion of simple mechanical cycling of the materials.. additionally the contacts within the breakers can corrode and have thier own increasing contact resistance which will heat up the breaker to a point where it will pop at a lower than rated current... but too small a wire aint gonna incease the amps going to the circuit fed by that wire.. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Joe, Get back into the basic Ohms law!! As voltage decreases. the amps/watts go up! |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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Ohms law actually states the exact opposite, current (amps) decreases as voltage decreases. You have been playin with ac motors for too long...
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pepatrick
Senior Member Joined: July-26-2012 Location: Cumming, GA Status: Offline Points: 102 |
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There are those who know...and those who think they know...
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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As one who knows only enough to be dangerous, there is a case where Pete is right - If the wire is feeding a motor, then increased R may result in lower RPM & lower back EMF, thus creating more amp draw. I realize this isn't the case here as it is not the starting circuit that is in question.
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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Of course but that is a very limited and transient situation, that as you state - in a boat can only be found in the starting circuit. Not even with the other motors that can be found in a boat the such as the bilge or blower… they have a defined torque speed curve and with any voltage significant enough to cause their operation they will move slower and use less current at the lower voltage. This is different that with AC motors because of the set frequency of the ac current and the design of the motor tends to as a rule draw more current when you drop voltage below the design operating voltage of the motor at that frequency. The situation remains… in this case Pete is all wet.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Joe,
You need to clarify DC brushed or brushless. They do react to a voltage drop differently! I'm not as stupid as you think I am!! |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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Not stupid, just stubborn..
We are talking about the run circuit of a boat here (which may contain a bldc stepper motor if equipped with non drive by wire perfect pass but not one that would draw more current at less voltage) .. if you want to get into the applications of brushed vs brushless and then onto ecm motors vs. permanent magnet synchronous, vs internal permanent magnet synchronous with flux weakening then I am your huckleberry.. but if you want to get into the most fun stuff we would need to take it offline and you would need to sign an NDA… My points remain valid.. there is only one ciruit on a correctcraft where increased resistance may at some points cause increased current draw (and even then it is decrease increased max current but is increased power consumption) |
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tbeard
Senior Member Joined: April-26-2012 Location: Fort Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 379 |
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While you guys are going at it I ordered my new circuit breaker for the ignition today from nautique Parts... Hope that fixes the problem until I can evaluate the wiring. :)
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Thanks.......Tom
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Tom, Joe and I aren't "going at it" We are just friends having a very interesting debate!! So, you got voltage readings (for drop) as well as the amp load that was going through the breaker. I'm glad to hear that since I would hate to label a fellow engineer as simply as another "parts changer!! What was the drop and amps through the breaker? It sure would help others with the possible same problem who have access to a VOM. |
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tbeard
Senior Member Joined: April-26-2012 Location: Fort Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 379 |
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No readings yet...the boat is still in storage at the river. I need to bring it home next week where I have my tools and a place where I can work on it. Ordered the breaker knowing it would take a few days to arrive. Ryan (SN206) will give me a hand....hopefully
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Thanks.......Tom
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TX Foilhead
Grand Poobah Joined: February-01-2009 Location: Kingsland TX Status: Offline Points: 2076 |
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[QUOTE/] Ryan (SN206) will give me a hand....[/QUOTE]
Hope and Change! |
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SN206
Grand Poobah Joined: February-25-2009 Location: Fort Worth, TX Status: Offline Points: 2339 |
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...those who have fallen and those who will.
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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tbeard
Senior Member Joined: April-26-2012 Location: Fort Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 379 |
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We got the boat running last week and everything is working...engine, horn, bilge, blower, lights. When not in the boat I always turn off the ignition breaker off so the clock is not running.
When I started working on the boat last night I noticed the clock running with the breaker off. So now the main breaker does not close to keep power from running through the dash. (Power is there weather the breaker is open or closed) Is that common with a faulty breaker or could I have power feed from the Ballast resister or solenoid? I plan to go back to the shop tomorrow and take my Volt meter to start troubleshooting. |
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Thanks.......Tom
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