You didn build that !

I live in a very progressive city and I got to tell you, we got a lot of people swinging in the hammocks. It's actually pretty unbelievable. If you don't think there are a lot of opportunists out there that take advantage of the system, you've got blinders on. No doubt there are legitimate people in need, but there are ALOT of people that work the system, especially SOME that do end up in city jobs. They're set for life if that's all they aspire to. I've never understood the mentality of working hard to do nothing.

davidg wrote: JoeinNY wrote:     Several of our members seem to suffer from an acute case of foxification - a condition where they cannot comprehend/tolerate any statements longer than one sentence, don't rhyme, that require the acceptance of reality, belief in science, knowledge of history, or in any way use math.     This begs the age old question....I am like this because I watch Fox News, or, do I watch Fox News because I am like this?!?!

Joe,
Could one not argue the opposite? ... that a few also suffer from "MSNBCification"?


I really dont think either Presidential option can, or will get us out of the mess the nation is in. I dont see O'bama changing his ways, so Romney, to me, is "The lesser of two evils".

The left gets their power from doling out a little bit of govt cheese every month, and trapping the poor into a lifetime of dependency on the govt. It is very obvious Obama very much wants this model to flourish, and unfortunately, the nation seems to be at a tipping point where people that want this out number people that don't want it....ie....more people riding in the cart than pulling it.

The right believes in limited govt and allowing business conditions to develop so people can work, become self sufficient and take care of themselves and their families.

How has LBJ's "War on Poverty" worked over the past 50 years?? Not well!! Trillions of government spending, and the poverty rate is virtually the same as in 1964.

The government's safety net has become a hammock for too many people.[/QUOTE]

davidg wrote: It's

It's like the old biblical saying....."Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach the man to fish, and he can feed himself for a lifetime.

How many of these people do you know personally? Have you been to their homes? Do you know their situation? Do you know the challenges they face? What does a mother with children do when her husband leaves or dies? How does she work to support a family and care for young children?
You must have programs so they can survive while you teach them to fish, and programs to teach them.
How does the 55 year old pay for insurance when he becomes ill and his company fires him to reduce their expenses thereby eliminating his medical insurance as well. Try to qualify for insurance when you have had cancer and now have a bag of poop on your thigh for the rest of your life. What do you do with someone like my friend I helped at work who was abandoned when she was 13. She suffered from frequent seizures and .needed brain surgery, but there was no one to take her to neurologists, and she had no insurance. I was able to get her on ssi and after several years of trying we found a neurosurgeon at Loyola University Hospital who did the surgery for free. She was 23 by then. She would have been supported by the government for life because she couldn't work, get a drivers license, or live alone with her conditions. She survived the only way she could. She let people flop in her apartment for money. She was sexually abused since she was 12, beaten, robbed, and used as a sex toy by the gangs in the area. I met her when the paramedics were at her apartment delivering a baby as a result. After the surgery she was ok. She now has a job, drivers license, and is married with a second child. I still talk with her from time to time.
When I was on the street I worked in a beat of section 8 housing. I knew many of the people and their problems. The vast majority are good people like anyone here. Everyone but the very wealthy and the very lucky need a hand now and then. I have seen many cases of a a parent working all day at the convenience store for pennies, only to come home and be charged $10 by the gangs for safe passage across the parking lot. When on bike patrol we would hide and arrest these predators when we could, and dress in plain clothes and be the "victims", but usually we just took reports, IF the person was brave enough to report it and risk another beating. I was often called to apartments for an "unknown problem" only to find that the family had no food, or electricity, or heat. Living on the "hammock"? I suggest you talk to Skicat and you will find that the hammock of public assistance programs is very uncomfortable. It sounds like he has the benefit of a family to help him, unlike most that I met. I don't know of anyone other than the scammers and addicts who wanted to remain on public programs, and they are only a very small percentage of those utilizing the programs. They are the same ones who do retail thefts, car burglaries, and charge safe passage across the parking lot, usually for drug money. They all end up in prison eventually.
Go down to your local section 8 housing and meet some of your fellow citizens sometime. Volunteer at an overnight housing program for the homeless. Deliver meals to the elderly trying to be independent and remain in their apartment or house because they have nowhere else to go.
I know it is hard to see these people while barefooting behind your ski boat at your summer home, but there are millions out there. Like Skicat, they don't intend to live on the meager amount they get in benefits, they would just like to get through the hard times with a little food, some shelter, and some clothes and medical care for their kids.
A country should be judged by how they treat their most vulnerable.
Also.
If your village employees are not productive, it is the fault of their management, which is usually the city council. The town I worked in had regular independent audits to determine the efficiency of their employees and relative cost of the services they provide. Without exception the studies showed that our village employees were at least as efficient, and in most cases more so, than comparable private employees providing the same services. If the city council is riding the hammock, voth them out!

Well said John.

I see you guys giving Joe a lot of grief but you don't really come at him with any real facts or debate. He's right. Sounds like all you've got are Fox one liners.

So let's keep it simple and educate you guys real quick with one liners.

From Wikipedia...you guys have heard of that place.

"Supply-side economics is a school of macroeconomic thought that argues that economic growth can be most effectively created by lowering barriers for people to produce (supply) goods and services, such as lowering income tax and capital gains tax rates, and by allowing greater flexibility by reducing regulation."

In a nut shell this is every Republican's approach since Reagan....even Romney. We know this to be true because that's all Fox has trained you guys to say. Lower taxes, save mankind.

Now hold to your shorts because this is where it's gonna get complicated for you guys.

"Most economists do not subscribe to supply-side economic theory."

That's right. They say it doesn't work AND.....drum roll....
IT CREATES GIANT DEFICITS!

All of that is from Wikipedia. Easy enough to find and easy enough to dismantle the Republican economic agenda.

If supply side worked, no economist in his right mind would go against it but most of them do. Why? BECAUSE IT DOES NOT WORK!

Turn off Fox and take an economics class or two.

So for all you people who keep saying cut taxes and it will solve the economy. You've been educated. You can stop saying that now.

TX Wind wrote: So for all you people who keep saying cut taxes and it will solve the economy. You've been educated. You can stop saying that now.

I have personaly never said to cut taxes.. How about the novel idea of cutting SPENDING?

john b wrote: The left gets their power from doling out a little bit of govt cheese every month, and trapping the poor into a lifetime of dependency on the govt. It is very obvious Obama very much wants this model to flourish, and unfortunately, the nation seems to be at a tipping point where people that want this out number people that don't want it....ie....more people riding in the cart than pulling it. The right believes in limited govt and allowing business conditions to develop so people can work, become self sufficient and take care of themselves and their families. How has LBJ's "War on Poverty" worked over the past 50 years?? Not well!! Trillions of government spending, and the poverty rate is virtually the same as in 1964. The government's safety net has become a hammock for too many people.

davidg wrote: It's like the old biblical saying....."Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach the man to fish, and he can feed himself for a lifetime. How many of these people do you know personally? Have you been to their homes? Do you know their situation? Do you know the challenges they face? What does a mother with children do when her husband leaves or dies? How does she work to support a family and care for young children? You must have programs so they can survive while you teach them to fish, and programs to teach them. How does the 55 year old pay for insurance when he becomes ill and his company fires him to reduce their expenses thereby eliminating his medical insurance as well. Try to qualify for insurance when you have had cancer and now have a bag of poop on your thigh for the rest of your life. What do you do with someone like my friend I helped at work who was abandoned when she was 13. She suffered from frequent seizures and .needed brain surgery, but there was no one to take her to neurologists, and she had no insurance. I was able to get her on ssi and after several years of trying we found a neurosurgeon at Loyola University Hospital who did the surgery for free. She was 23 by then. She would have been supported by the government for life because she couldn't work, get a drivers license, or live alone with her conditions. She survived the only way she could. She let people flop in her apartment for money. She was sexually abused since she was 12, beaten, robbed, and used as a sex toy by the gangs in the area. I met her when the paramedics were at her apartment delivering a baby as a result. After the surgery she was ok. She now has a job, drivers license, and is married with a second child. I still talk with her from time to time. When I was on the street I worked in a beat of section 8 housing. I knew many of the people and their problems. The vast majority are good people like anyone here. Everyone but the very wealthy and the very lucky need a hand now and then. I have seen many cases of a a parent working all day at the convenience store for pennies, only to come home and be charged $10 by the gangs for safe passage across the parking lot. When on bike patrol we would hide and arrest these predators when we could, and dress in plain clothes and be the "victims", but usually we just took reports, IF the person was brave enough to report it and risk another beating. I was often called to apartments for an "unknown problem" only to find that the family had no food, or electricity, or heat. Living on the "hammock"? I suggest you talk to Skicat and you will find that the hammock of public assistance programs is very uncomfortable. It sounds like he has the benefit of a family to help him, unlike most that I met. I don't know of anyone other than the scammers and addicts who wanted to remain on public programs, and they are only a very small percentage of those utilizing the programs. They are the same ones who do retail thefts, car burglaries, and charge safe passage across the parking lot, usually for drug money. They all end up in prison eventually. Go down to your local section 8 housing and meet some of your fellow citizens sometime. Volunteer at an overnight housing program for the homeless. Deliver meals to the elderly trying to be independent and remain in their apartment or house because they have nowhere else to go. I know it is hard to see these people while barefooting behind your ski boat at your summer home, but there are millions out there. Like Skicat, they don't intend to live on the meager amount they get in benefits, they would just like to get through the hard times with a little food, some shelter, and some clothes and medical care for their kids. A country should be judged by how they treat their most vulnerable. Also. If your village employees are not productive, it is the fault of their management, which is usually the city council. The town I worked in had regular independent audits to determine the efficiency of their employees and relative cost of the services they provide. Without exception the studies showed that our village employees were at least as efficient, and in most cases more so, than comparable private employees providing the same services. If the city council is riding the hammock, voth them out!

John.....I have said it before, and I will say it again. "THE ROAD TO HELL IS PAVED WITH GOOD INTENTIONS"!

What do I mean when I say that. The government has created all these "anti-poverty" programs decades and decades ago. People got used to them, and in many cases I think the govt became the "man of the house". Families broke up. Dads split. Lots of single mothers that learned that all they had to do was have even more kids and the govt would pay them even more.

Fast forward several generations, and now you have multi-generations that simply don't know how to pull themselves up by the bootstraps, and are stuck in a never-ending downward spiral of govt dependancy.

They don't want to work, they can't work, they've come to expect the government to take care of them. AND IT BREAKS MY HEART TO SEE THIS!

Sure, there are lots of people who have legitimate needs for some form of govt assistance, and I think we need some programs. My point is, I think that our govt has brought a lot of this heartbreak on themselves by trying to be benevolent and "help people out". Instead, they have ruined many lives due to their "generosity" with taxpayer money.

We have a food pantry at our church, which my wife is very involved in. I see a lot of very able bodied people that show up to get free food. In many cases, they are driving a nicer car than I do. People have learned to work the system and get free STUFF! Just like the lady who is going to get her free "Obama-Phone"!

Let's help the people that need help, but, let's stop these crazy govt programs that trap people into a life of poverty ridden dependancy. Unfortunately, I see the Democratic party as being the enabler for these programs, and trapping these people with wonderful benevolance.

THE ROAD TO HELL IS PAVED WITH GOOD INTENTIONS!!

David, your right, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, yours. To eliminate these programs is the road to hell.

My best friends brother is the recipient of one of those "free" cell phones. It is the only thing that keeps him out of full care in a nursing home. He has brain damage due to a brain hemorrhage and can not live without assistance. The cell phone enables him to call for help. If he didn't have it and his section 8 housing, he would be living in a nursing home to the tune of $60,000-$80,000 per year of government money. As it is, section 8 is about $800 per month and the cell phone can't be more than $20, no roaming, no data, no text, and about 150 minutes per month.
Have you tried filling out a job application and listing your contact information as " look for me in the homeless shelter at night or the library during their normal hours. How do you call the police, the paramedics, your child's school? Try to live in the world today without communication. You will find that you are as isolated and unemployable as Ted Kosinski. Get a job? How?
Put my friends brother in a nursing home and see what you save.

Nope, not a shred

62 wood wrote: TX Wind wrote: So let's keep it simple and educate you guys real quick with one liners. From Wikipedia...you guys have heard of that place. . uhhh,doesnt Wikipedia get its info from anonymous sources? just found this in a Google search.... Although a large number of texts in Wikipedia cite external sources to meet the expectations of the verifiability policy (Wikipedia 2008l), articles may temporarily lack references if an editor is unable to find an appropriate one at the time of writing. If there are no ethical concerns, individual facts can be marked temporarily as requiring reference. There are also several projects for referencing previously unreferenced articles (Wikipedia 2009, 2008n). Even if the original contributors give references to their contributions at a later date, the original source of information and the cited reference need not to be the same. Therefore, it is not always altogether clear where the information presented in the articles actually originates.

LOL...I knew this would come up. So check the references in Wikipedia on Supply Side. I'm sure that if they were not good someone would have been all over them by now. It's saying pretty much what all 3 of the economics classes I have taken say about it. Find me a single refute to the fact that supply side and Reagonomics are almost synonymous. Or find me a single text book that doesn't say most economists disagree with supply side. Back it up.

Good luck.

JoeinNY wrote: Several of our members seem to suffer from an acute case of foxification - a condition where they cannot comprehend/tolerate any statements longer than one sentence, don't rhyme, that require the acceptance of reality, belief in science, knowledge of history, or in any way use math. If the above symptoms apply to you I recommend you turn off the tv, remove all AM radios from the house, travel outside your backyard and normal group of friends every now and then, take two economics classes and call me in the morning.

Joe, great list. Just add in an elective frontal lobotomy and I will start donating to Obama!

fox is a conservative news outlet, they dont hide it, they dont try to report an issue fairly..how many prior republican candidates for president has fox put on the pay roll, if they were fair and balanced you would maybe find some sort of democratic candidate on the payroll?

Seriously fox was created to present conservative bent news.. this is nothing they try to hide if you take it as a fair and balanced news source then you are not being a good consumer of information. Thats not to say one shouldnt watch fox and that there is nothing to learn there, just that you should probably have in the back of your mind that they are pushing a conservative agenda and may in fact leave out any details that are not helpful to that agenda.

No doubt Msnbc has become more of a liberal forum as a response to the foxification of news and that should be kept in mind when listening to them.

CNN has no balls whatso ever and frankly doesnt report crap like the rest of modern media they bring in a paid shill from both sides then make no real efforts to fact check either one...

As for the personalized attacks from those that cant handle the truth towards me.. man you guys are effecting my self esteem .. I am going to have to go home and spend all weekend working on cool boats, playing volleyball, and going out with good looking younger women to keep me off the ledge.

TX Wind wrote: More than that, take a sociology class. The economic returns on social programs and infrastructure improvements approach 300%.

This quote is exactly what I am talking about. With a 300% return on investment, would not this country be SOOOO much better off if we all quit working and went on the govt teet?