You didn build that !

Regs

john b wrote: I just realized that many of you probably don't know what Plutonomy is. Well, here is the definition.

Plutonomy: Mike Mouses dogs Careful, thrifty management of resources, such as money, materials, or labor:

I think there is common ground between most of us.

I have no problem helping someone that needs help - NONE.
I have a huge problem with paying for someones cell phone.

I have no problem paying for food for a hungry child.
I have a huge problem with someone that pays with a
food stamp "visa card" and loads the groceries in to
an Escalade rolling on 24s.


Think of it as the Titanic. Some will work to save
who they can selflessly. Some will try and stand on
others heads because thats the only land they see.

One way some will servive, the other no one will.

I was taught long ago as an aircrewman to save someone
you first save yourself.
So when someone is trying to use the top of your head
for an island - go under way under they get scared and
you can come up behind them and take control of a bad situation.

d/a your such a d/a give us a little credit.

Waterdog wrote: I think there is common ground between most of us. I have no problem helping someone that needs help - NONE. I have a huge problem with paying for someones cell phone. I have no problem paying for food for a hungry child. I have a huge problem with someone that pays with a food stamp "visa card" and loads the groceries in to an Escalade rolling on 24s. Think of it as the Titanic. Some will work to save who they can selflessly. Some will try and stand on others heads because thats the only land they see. One way some will servive, the other no one will. I was taught long ago as an aircrewman to save someone you first save yourself. So when someone is trying to use the top of your head for an island - go under way under they get scared and you can come up behind them and take control of a bad situation. d/a your such a d/a give us a little credit.

As a former lifeguard I hear you on the drowning thing!

I don't like people scamming the system, but I don't like the system being taken away either. The trick is to find a middle-ground that helps people who need it and discourages (sadly of course we can never eliminate it) fraud, waste, and abuse. As long as we are working towards that end I am happy.

Waterdog wrote: As a former lifeguard I hear you on the drowning thing! I don't like people scamming the system, but I don't like the system being taken away either. The trick is to find a middle-ground that helps people who need it and discourages (sadly of course we can never eliminate it) fraud, waste, and abuse. As long as we are working towards that end I am happy. See there +1 [/QUOTE wrote: +1 with qualifications. I would like to think there is middle ground, but I keep hearing about how everyone who is using the benefits and is out of work is lazy. Sure, there are scammers, but like I said earlier, WalMart doesn't close a store because a few are shoplifting. You need to enforce the laws regarding benefits, and if you see abuse you have a duty to report it. I know abuses exist, I wrote and served the first search warrant in Illinois for public aid fraud in a

+1 with qualifications.
I would like to think there is middle ground, but I keep hearing about how everyone who is using the benefits and is out of work is lazy.
Sure, there are scammers, but like I said earlier, WalMart doesn't close a store because a few are shoplifting. You need to enforce the laws regarding benefits, and if you see abuse you have a duty to report it. I know abuses exist, I wrote and served the first search warrant in Illinois for public aid fraud in about 1995. It felt really good!
You can't generalize about people showing up for groceries in expensive cars either. I mentioned my neighbor and his family who lost their house and apparently drove away in their Lexus (I didn't see it, I was in WI).
A friend of mine who is out of work right now is driving around in a new Mercedes ML. His 2001 Cherokee engine took a dump and he can't afford to fix it. His father loaned him the ML because he only uses it when its snowy out, and he doesn't want to drive his MB convertible in bad weather. His father is at his vacation place in Germany right now buying a new MB and driving it around so he can ship it home and avoid many of the taxes. You don't know someone's situation by looking at their car.
This is all just rhetoric, and I have enjoyed it. I hope that everyone can pull together after the election and solve some of our problems.
Sincerely,
D/A X2, or maybe you prefer SDA, the S is for super.

ELECTION NIGHT GAMES
Here is something I think we can have fun with, it is something my daughter sent to me.
See who is the closest to the final electoral count and map.
I can't think of anything to offer the winner.

Build your own election map

I started a new thread to post your map. Good luck to anyone who wants to play.

This would be an interesting study in discrimination. Lets compare the percentage of 1%'ers that undergo rigorous government audit to prove the legitimacy of their financial dealings as compared to the percentage of welfare recipients that have to undergo a similar level of intense scrutiny to prove their legitimacy. sounds like something we could fund a university to study.

OverMyHead wrote: This would be an interesting study in discrimination. Lets compare the percentage of 1%'ers that undergo rigorous government audit to prove the legitimacy of their financial dealings as compared to the percentage of welfare recipients that have to undergo a similar level of intense scrutiny to prove their legitimacy. sounds like something we could fund a university to study.

Great idea. It sounds like a great doctoral thesis. I don't believe you would need to fund it. I think some guy looking for his PHD in economics would be tempted to do it, or possibly may have already done so.

Have you read Freakonomics? It is a great read. I think anyone would enjoy it. It really examines some social issues that were not well documented and makes some logical conclusions.

Freakonomics

Gang Leader for a day is another great book. It is about living in the Chicago Housing Authority projects and the way people survive. It offers a look the vast majority of the population will never experience or understand except through this book.

Gang Leader For a Day

Hey, anyone want to suggest some reads for a book club?

I have inserted some of my comments after your statements. this is not just to be argumentative, but to allow you to make suggestions to solve some of the problems your proposals would create.

skicat2001 wrote: what dont get is how can you literally vote for someone like Obama that put 6 trillion dollars on the map. HOW?? Forced crappy healthcare Obama care down are throats. A higher unemployment rate which is actually 14.6%. Just large LARGE GOVERMENT In every catagory. May I respectfully remind you that you are being treated for your health problems by government health care and surviving on other entitlement programs. Yea Obama has a hidden tax going on peoples cell phone bill so they can get it for free. I got the same kinda offer in the mail. Guess where it went. IN THE TRASH!!    I didnt earn it!! Black man walked up to me said he was hungry I can spare a few bucks. He didnt look like a drug attic, so I gave him 2$$. He then walked away, and pulled a cell phone out of his pocket. What is wrong with this picture?? I don't know, what? If you don't want to be duped do what most of us did on the street. Buy a big pack of McDonalds gift certificates. If the person asks for money because they are hungry offer them one. If they turn it down, they are looking for money for something else. Glass seeker, you know why gun sales are up. When Obama a lefty got in there, people got scared and where loading up. Because he wants to change the 2nd Amendment in the Constitution. I dare somebody to come to my door step saying where here to take your weapons. The police really don't care what you dare them to do. We did that all the time. In Illinois you are required to give up your weapons if you have been charged with a domestic violence crime or if you are convicted of a felony. The easiest way is to traffic stop them, present the court order, and then go back to their residence with them and collect their firearms. Law abiding citizens need not fear. If you can't do that you knock on the door. I am for people taking drug tests to get on welfare. We would save tons of money versus putting people on it.

What do you do with their kids, let them starve?

Skicat, these are simple talking points for complex problems. If they would work they would have probably been implemented.
In reality, social programs are not only implemented to benefit those who would starve, freeze, or die in a doorway, they are the last line of defense that prevents anarchy. Just like a wild animal, a man, woman, mother , or father will not willingly starve or freeze, or let his children die ogf starvation or exposure to the elements. They will do whatever it takes to feed and clothe themselves and their family. They are not concerned about the consequences of whatever crime they commit. By providing a minimal level of the basic necessities you prevent them from committing the crimes that would bog down our court system and overload our prisons beyond how they are now.

d/a, its a real good thing I ain't king

   After the White House Clinton has been
on a speaking tour.

   If O B has 2 more days or 4 more years
I feel he will go on a Community Activest
tour and be the opening act for the Rev Wright.

I mean - I can see it comming. Anybody else?

Can I get an Am**, ahh +1

Wrong thread, but I had done that, Romney won. Don't know what happened.

skicat2001 wrote: Black man walked up to me said he was hungry I can spare a few bucks. He didnt look like a drug attic, so I gave him 2$$. He then walked away, and pulled a cell phone out of his pocket. What is wrong with this picture?? Glass seeker, you know why gun sales are up. When Obama a lefty got in there, people got scared and where loading up. Because he wants to change the 2nd Amendment in the Constitution. I dare somebody to come to my door step saying where here to take your weapons.

Dude, I am sorry for commenting to your post, but I cannot help myself. You asked "what is wrong...."

   Why must you indicate his skin color at all? Why does that matter at all?

   Besides living a life of hypocrisy in your political views and the programs you utilize, posting about it online, pretending to have one iota of sense, if this isn't enough......

you are a racist.

You still think all blacks scam folks?   Pick up a book dude, it's what I did, then I learned to defend myself, after that I learned to stand up for myself.    I see dudes like you all the time in some classes I instruct. ( hhehehe, Dave I got me a job, it's a tax payin' one at that too! )

A little self esteem will do wonders for bigotry.     

And that is coming from a brother that has been there, so I'm just saying, I would have gotten my $2 bucks back, or a nice story if I saw that happen in front of me.





What the hell do you care?

It's not even your money, fool. It's mine, and tell him he can have it. Next time skicat give him $5 of my dollars out of your wallet, then he can get a blunt wrapper for.....



   

Hansel wrote: I should have used more precise language and said that there is NO PROFIT (instead of "NO MONEY") in helping the poor. I stand by my differentiation of dividing the economy into a public (government), private (for-profit), and voluntary (non-profit) sectors. My point was that there is a role for both the public and voluntary sectors to do things that there are or should be no profit in. Cases in point including helping the poor (won't make a profit there) or rebuilding after a major hurricane (shouldn't be profit driven motives here either).

Profit or Money makes no difference. Businesses donate back to the communities that support them through charitable giving, sponsorships and foundations. They do it all the time for no profit. to say otherwise is pure denial. I guess you can stand by your personal definitions but you if you are arguing economics online it would behoove you to know the ones everyone else uses. there are plenty of tax exempt organizations in the private sector and the government is public sector. That is economics 101. As far as no profit for helping the poor, all donated supplies and labor are as non profit as yuo get. 1005 of resources go to those being served. The government is paying union employees to administrate the services, and paying for the resources used.

Hansel wrote: You challenged me to leave the country in response to me telling you to leave the grid. One of the ironies of this is that I can find lots of working places that people want to live that are what you might consider socialist so I have some pretty good options. You, with your "contempt" for government actually have very few places to go and they are not very attractive. That should tell you something about the end results of your arguments.

Handel, the united states is certainly unique and worth protecting. It was founded by people with contempt for government.they wanted something better and unique. What they came up with went from nothing but potential to the worlds only superpower in just over 200 years. That is unprecedented in world history. Socialist country's come and go. they simply are not sustainable long term. So why do we want to change from the world most successful model to the model of a socialist country??

Hansel wrote: I don't get to count payroll TAXES as taxes now since they benefit me? Well then I guess I'm just going to write off all taxes since they go to support all kinds of things than benefit me like roads, schools, police, firemen, the military, etc... You are always saying the problem with taxes is that they don't let me use my money as I see fit. So how does a payroll tax not count by that definition?

That is Joes Logic. He will not allow me to call social security or medicare and entitlement. It is also a scam to reference on a income percentage basis. Social security will only pay out to $50,000, so you only pay in to 50,000 of your income. So it is a "set up" comparison with the rich. If you want them to pay a percentage of their 20 million dollar income comparable to you, then you will have to pay them their 200 million dollar annual income in retirement. Remember it is a forced savings plan.

Hansel wrote: I'll counter your concern for taxation of the rich with a slight twist of your quote, "The POOR are paying taxes every time they turn around, there is no free lunch for them as you would have us believe."

es we all pay use taxes. Based on what we use in some cases, When it comes to our federal government progressive taxes mean half the people pay for themselves and the other half. While half receive and pay for nothing. That is not sustainable. 10%, 20% maybe but not half and growing. I see a difference between a "hand up" when somebody is down, a "hand out" when someone has extra and wants to offer it to the person most in need, and a guy with his hand out that expects everyone walking by to give him something. The government does not.

Hansel wrote: You want the world to go back to the way it was but that is just never going to happen. The challenge isn't to try to put the genie back into the bottle, it is to move forward with honest solutions to actual problems. Not fanciful and simplistic one liners that attack straw men. There is an important place for conservative principles, thinking, and philosophy in the world today. The problem is that instead of creating a legitimate dialogue with progressives, conservatism has chosen to bury its collective head in the sand, denying sweeping changes in society and the natural world. Demographic shifts in the American population? Nope, straight white men will rule forever. Global climate change? No problem with that hoax. Taxes supporting legitimate roles of government? Nah, who need's 'em. Technology fundamentally revolutionizing the now global economy? I want my old job back! The list is seemingly endless.

We would not be having this discussion if my head was buried in the sand, and the left is equally deaf to the issues of the deficit, national security, unborn lives, weather cycles vs. climate change, Individual liberty, the global economy and the rest of the seemingly endless list. We on the right talk of the past because we want to learn from it. Just because we chose to do it differently does not mean we chose correctly. We have a massive spending problem that the left will not acknowledge. Only that we have a tax problem. The only solutions the left offers is more taxes and more spending. We want to control spending to save programs, not eliminate them. The longer we dig the hole the more extreme the solution will be to get out of it. Look at the austerity going on in Greece and the turmoil it is causing. If they had addressed the problem a decade or more ago, the solution would have been far easier to swallow. How long have we known medicare and social security would go bankrupt? But we are waiting till the day it happens to fix it. well if the money is gone, the fix is going to have to be stop giving anything to anyone. That is not what anyone wants, but it is the reality we face.

Waterdog wrote: I've told some crappy stories here. This happened to me the other day. As I was getting in my truck in a parking lot a guy drove up. He was desprite and begged for money. He said he had just pawned what he had and needed to get percripion filled. In a few seconds I felt he was TRULY in need and gave him 10 bucks. He was very greatful and drove away cring.   I pray that guy is OK. Now - I with ya Skicat I'm subject to random P tests. If you dont pass your off the gravy train PEROID I had to go to DFW and heared a guy Stoney LaRue could you pm me with simalar artists hes good!

I am glad you where able to help really someone in need. When a person drives off , he or she was in desparte need. A life saved.

We would save alot of money. Paying for the test would save us much more than letting them have these benefits.

ononewheel wrote: skicat2001 wrote: Black man walked up to me said he was hungry I can spare a few bucks. He didnt look like a drug attic, so I gave him 2$$. He then walked away, and pulled a cell phone out of his pocket. What is wrong with this picture?? Glass seeker, you know why gun sales are up. When Obama a lefty got in there, people got scared and where loading up. Because he wants to change the 2nd Amendment in the Constitution. I dare somebody to come to my door step saying where here to take your weapons. Dude, I am sorry for commenting to your post, but I cannot help myself. You asked "what is wrong...."    Why must you indicate his skin color at all? Why does that matter at all?    Besides living a life of hypocrisy in your political views and the programs you utilize, posting about it online, pretending to have one iota of sense, if this isn't enough...... you are a racist. You still think all blacks scam folks?   Pick up a book dude, it's what I did, then I learned to defend myself, after that I learned to stand up for myself.    I see dudes like you all the time in some classes I instruct. ( hhehehe, Dave I got me a job, it's a tax payin' one at that too! ) A little self esteem will do wonders for bigotry.      And that is coming from a brother that has been there, so I'm just saying, I would have gotten my $2 bucks back, or a nice story if I saw that happen in front of me. What the hell do you care? It's not even your money, fool. It's mine, and tell him he can have it. Next time skicat give him $5 of my dollars out of your wallet, then he can get a blunt wrapper for.....

First off, how can I be a racist. I voted for Obama. I voted democrat once and will never do that AGAIN!!

And secondly, you didnt not get my point. Is a cell phone more important than eating?? If it is, you have your priorties backwards.