New ECM to GT40 -1998 (?!) |
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MBO090
Groupie Joined: October-23-2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 68 |
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Posted: March-30-2013 at 6:14am |
I have some problems with my GT40 EFI.
The relays to the fuelpump doesnt always start when I turn the key and its getting quite frustraiting... I have changed the relays several times and checked all cabels so that can be excluded from the "check list" and the engine starts up ok 8 times of 10...but when it doesnt start in the middle of the lake with happy kids in the boat - well its for sale realy realy cheap. My conclusion is that something is wrong with the ECM (computer) its afterall 15 years old. My question to you guys: Where can I buy a new one for shipping to Sweden? Any other coments to my problem?! |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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Check out this thread:
http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25584&PN=1&title=poor-mans-gt40-diagnosis Within it you will also find a link to this: Google Docs GT-40 Spreadsheet Make sure you scroll all the way down and side to side to see all the options. See if any of it helps. There has really only been one case of someone having to replace the ECM that I know of. |
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Florida Inboards
Senior Member Joined: December-27-2012 Location: Panama City, Fl Status: Offline Points: 265 |
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Many GT-40 ECM's fail every Year. Some with little hours on them some with a couple thousand hours. It has now been 11 years since the last one rolled out of production how ever unlike many other PCM parts the replacement ECM is nearly a NLA part. PCM dealers that have them are seeking big money and PCM rat holed used units that they are selling as new....Bottom line here is if you don't want to pay you don't want to boat! this for the most part also applies to MEFI 2 and 3 ECM's. The preferred GT-40 ECM is the 300-M as it addressed some cold start issues and other tweaking.
I have A complete GT-40 induction system with the ECM included listed in my Florida Inboards spring cleaning thread. I am trying to keep it complete however I would sell the 300-M ECM for the right price! |
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Money Talks! BS Walks! and loose change rides the bus!!!
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MI-nick
Gold Member Joined: January-12-2009 Location: Ypsilanti, MI Status: Offline Points: 810 |
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that's not very encouraging to all the GT-40 owners out there (myself included) who plan on keeping their boats for a while. if the ECM pukes, what are the options?? seems like replace the ECM or replace the engine...
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As far as I can tell, I'm not quite sure...
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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If it were me I'd check into something like this seems like they can programe to what you need. It would be worth a call because a dealer sure won't help you.But thats just my hobbyists opinion
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21169 |
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Unless someone has figured out a way to break into PCM's firmware, Im not sure that those guys would be much help. They keep their engine programming pretty tight to the vest, and the stock ECM's are locked down tight. Starting from scratch could prove challenging, time consuming, and/or expensive. Unless youve got considerable skills/time/money (or at least 2 of the 3) then its probably worth paying the king's ransom for the OEM parts. At least, thats what Ive gathered! Personally, Im waiting for Joe and Dan to develop some decent tunes. |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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The alternative would be then to junk the engine??? OEM parts won't be around as long as a good old HM motor! Like I say phone calls are cheap. Is an PCM ECM really different other than programing? This same thing happened to my Dads 2000 Lincoln, when the digital dash went out. Dealer said cannot fix cannot get new unit or repair old. Went on line found a place that rebuilt the whole unit with a warrenty for 200.
Thinking like that Tim would be like saying well the stringers are bad CC don't sell new ones,might as well junk the boat |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21169 |
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I believe Joe confirmed that the ECM is in fact a standard Ford part, so nothing special from a hardware perspective. All its value is in the software/firmware... and thats why PCM guards it so tightly. Lots of hours and $$ wrapped up in developing it! I dont blame them for locking it down, really.
If someone can successfully unlock the code and figure out the baseline, then youre in business. By all means, make some phone calls and see if its doable! I suspect I know what the answer is, though. If you cant find someone who can fix the old one for cheap, and dont have the skills/time/money to start from scratch, then I guess youre stuck paying out the nose for a NOS piece that someone still has on the shelf. Or, convert to carb? |
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va-river-tique
Groupie Joined: February-01-2008 Location: Da Ville, Va Status: Offline Points: 63 |
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Just throwing this out there but I had an identical issue, replaced relays .. went thru the GT40 diags checking with my meter ...etc, finally figured out one of my batteries (old and dying) was tripping my breaker to the fuel pump. I could reproduce the issue time after time by leaving the switcher on 'all' or 'bad battery', when I set the switcher on 'good battery', all was well.
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E4ODnut
Groupie Joined: December-06-2012 Location: Gibsons, BC Can Status: Offline Points: 66 |
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I agree with TR in that the ECM is probably just a generic EEC-IV. These things can be programmed to run a huge variety of engines and transmissions. The key, of course, is the tuning, or firmware code if you like.
There has been some success in reverse engineering the EEC-IV code but it is mainly limited to the 5 Litre Mustangs and a few other popular variants. There is hardware available to interface with the EEC-IV and software to modify the tuning parameters. It takes a huge amount of time and effort to do this kind of thing, so I doubt very much if anyone has seriously tried to reverse engineeer the marine tune, even though it should be a lot simpler than an emissions controlled road vehicle There is one possibility though, depending on how many different firmware versions were available for the 351 marine engines. If there are only a few, it is probable that they would be very similar. Rather than try to crack the code, another approach would be to put a known good marine coded ECM on a test bench and data log ignition timing and injector pulse widths under all speed and load conditions. This information could be used to either modify one of the popular EEC-IVs for marine use, or use it to develop the tuning parameters for an after market ECM such as Megasquirt. This would require a lot of time and effort as well, but in the end you would end up with the results of the many many tuning hours that the developers of the code had to invest. Probably the main benefit would be a chance to extend the life of the system for as long as the other parts would be available. |
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Robert
1993 Bayliner 3288 "Hocus Pocus" 351 Fords, converted to tuned port programmable EFI |
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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China can reverse engineer it over night.
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.â€
Ben Franklin |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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I'm curious about that. At what point that just makes sense. If they can make a kit to retrofit the Protech engines, why not a kit for this? It's still a similar, 351 Windsor at the end of the day, right? |
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MI-nick
Gold Member Joined: January-12-2009 Location: Ypsilanti, MI Status: Offline Points: 810 |
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if the ECM is a standard part...and the software already exists somewhere at PCM...how hard could it be for PCM to make a new GT-40 ECM? whether or not they would actually do it is another question...
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As far as I can tell, I'm not quite sure...
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TX Foilhead
Grand Poobah Joined: February-01-2009 Location: Kingsland TX Status: Offline Points: 2076 |
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When the dealers want it and there are no more spares they will make a fix, as long as they can keep selling them for inflated prices why should they stop. The only alternative is a new motor.
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lewy2001
Grand Poobah Joined: March-19-2008 Location: NSW Australia Status: Offline Points: 2234 |
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If you're going through hell, keep going
89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
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cphase
Gold Member Joined: May-11-2010 Location: Newnan, GA Status: Offline Points: 795 |
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E4ODnut
Groupie Joined: December-06-2012 Location: Gibsons, BC Can Status: Offline Points: 66 |
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Re-build and re-programming??? Sounds too good to be true to me, but perhaps it's for real.
Does this mean they can download the chip memory, wipe it clean, do whatever repairs they have to do to the hardware and then re-load the memory? Or does it mean they can not only repair the hardware and also re-program the memory to your specification? Replacing defective electronic components is one thing, but replacing a programmed chip is quite another. I am skeptical, but I hope I'm wrong. |
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Robert
1993 Bayliner 3288 "Hocus Pocus" 351 Fords, converted to tuned port programmable EFI |
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lewy2001
Grand Poobah Joined: March-19-2008 Location: NSW Australia Status: Offline Points: 2234 |
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I have noticed most intermittent type problems with the ECM seem to be heat soak related. The large metal plate at the the rear of the engine that the ECM is attached to gets quite hot. This heat would then transfer to the ECM box.
I have spaced my ECM away from this plate. The air gap should help with heat soak type problems. The EEC1V ECM was designed for 185F (80C) continuous and 212F (100C) intermittent. I have not put a thermometer under the closed engine cover but I bet it gets hotter than 185F after a long 36-40 mph run when engine is shut down. Like most electronic components they degrade with over heating and eventually fail. If you can reduce the heat the ECM experiences you will get better reliability (MTBF) of these electronic components. |
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If you're going through hell, keep going
89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
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MI-nick
Gold Member Joined: January-12-2009 Location: Ypsilanti, MI Status: Offline Points: 810 |
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i did some digging regarding the availability of the ECM...emailed PCM and finally got a reply today.
"These are still available through any PCM dealer. You can find your nearest one at www.pcmengines.com" so there you have it.. |
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As far as I can tell, I'm not quite sure...
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2001SAN
Senior Member Joined: June-26-2012 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 244 |
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any ideas on price? not sure of any pcm dealers over here to ask. just curious as a gt40 owner!.
d. |
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A little knowledge is a dangerous thing...
2001 Super Air Nautique 1989 Fairline Corniche 31 www.bannrivercruises.co.uk |
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MI-nick
Gold Member Joined: January-12-2009 Location: Ypsilanti, MI Status: Offline Points: 810 |
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600-800 USD. you can find the nearest PCM dealer here
looks like a few in the UK. |
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As far as I can tell, I'm not quite sure...
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E4ODnut
Groupie Joined: December-06-2012 Location: Gibsons, BC Can Status: Offline Points: 66 |
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I think it was Henry Ford who said: "If I could be guaranteed exclusive rights to sell parts for my cars, I'd give my cars away" or something like that.
$600 to $800 for an ECU! Putting it in perspective, a Megasquirt 1 kit C/W a relay kit is under 250 clams. Yes, you have to assemble it, which anyone with basic soldering skills can do. If you don't have the skills, prebuilt units are available for less that twice as much. But, if it breaks, which they very seldom do, they are repairable by anyone with basic soldering skills and the most expensive component in them is the processor, which at last count was about $35. Yes, it has to be programmed, but once programmed the program is open source and can be distributed to anyone. This is prime stuff for a group project for those wanting to keep their GT40s alive for the foreseeable future. I admit to a bias for programmable EFI, but I see such a waste that these good factory EFI systems cannot be kept in service simply because of the cost and/or availability of replacement parts. Pity. |
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Robert
1993 Bayliner 3288 "Hocus Pocus" 351 Fords, converted to tuned port programmable EFI |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21169 |
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Its not the hardware thats expensive, its the software. Until someone comes up with a custom tune thats equivalent to the one PCM put on the engine, what other choice does everyone have?
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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I am as likely to build and program a custom controller as anyone else in the world, but to think it would be a reasonable thing to do to avoid a 600-800 dollar replacement cost of an ecm is kinda silly. You would do a bunch of work and countless hours, not to mention the possibiliy that you destroy your engine in the process simply to save 300 bucks. No way, it has its uses but as a realistic choice to save money over a stock ecm if you could get one for 6-800... thats a stretch. If they were NLA or say 1500 bucks that would be different.
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Florida Inboards
Senior Member Joined: December-27-2012 Location: Panama City, Fl Status: Offline Points: 265 |
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$1200-$1500 is now the going rate as they are "New" NLA! Same with MEFI 2/3. I keep one of each for diagnostic purposes here in the shop, If someone needs one they will pay a premium for it! These are now replacement parts that we rat hole because we can. $$$$
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Money Talks! BS Walks! and loose change rides the bus!!!
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2001SAN
Senior Member Joined: June-26-2012 Location: Ireland Status: Offline Points: 244 |
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ouch! pricey. |
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A little knowledge is a dangerous thing...
2001 Super Air Nautique 1989 Fairline Corniche 31 www.bannrivercruises.co.uk |
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75 animal
Newbie Joined: December-01-2011 Location: australia Status: Offline Points: 18 |
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I have had same problem. The fix for me was checking and cleaning all earths from dash to engine. All of them. Then I worked out that the starter solenoid was faulty. I replaced this and all was fixed. I think that once the boats get to 5-10 years old the electrical system needs a full check and clean just as the fuel system etc does. Start at the battery and work from there, it is quite frustrating at times but just work from one end to the other. I could always bridge the relay and the pumps would work but the relay would not work intermittently. The boat would fire no problem cold and then somedays the problem would not appear at all.I was at my wits end and ready to replace the computer as well. You may not have the exact same problem, but before you go and spend a fortune spend some time.Be patient and even keep a diary on what happens when and you will have a better chance of fixing the fault. Good luck and I hope I have helped!
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E4ODnut
Groupie Joined: December-06-2012 Location: Gibsons, BC Can Status: Offline Points: 66 |
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75 animal gives very good advice.
From my experience with programmable EFI, your complete electrical installation has to be perfect, or at least as perfect as one can get it. It is an "Electronic Fuel Injection" system after all. Ground offsets can create lots of problems which are hard to isolate. Things would be simpler if there was no common ground return path, but that's not a practical solution in the automotive electrical world in which we live. It's been said before that the thing most commonly blamed for a problem is the ECU, and the thing least likely to fail is the ECU. Failed or poor common grounds are the most common cause of failures. Next would be electrical connections on the line side, probably next would be sensor failures, but they are not all that common either. Last on the list would be the ECU itself. These are the probabilities. If you just have bad luck, then it could be anything or worse yet, a combination of things. |
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Robert
1993 Bayliner 3288 "Hocus Pocus" 351 Fords, converted to tuned port programmable EFI |
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MBO090
Groupie Joined: October-23-2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 68 |
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Thanks for all the answers guys!
I will definately spend a day or two on the electrical system and aspecially the ground connections... The way I see it - a computer is either dead or works as it should (but not always...) and a bad ground-connection can be the answer to why it works 8 times of 10 and if it doesnt work - the system starts working after 5 minutes or 1 hour. I am impressed and very thankfull for your answer and I will give this thread some feedback asap. I have also asked a PCM-dealer in Sweden what a new computer will cost - it can be interesting to know in worst case. Right now we still have 1 meter of snow in the northern part of Sweden but in some weeks from now the snow is gone and the examination can begin. Thanks again! |
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