Carburator - can see a lot of Gas thru air valvas |
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daniel1978
Groupie Joined: June-01-2013 Location: Lower Austria Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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Posted: June-01-2013 at 4:10pm |
Mealtime!
I have an 1995 Ski Nautique with PCM engine. Last year, gas ran thru the carburator into the cylinder so the starter could not start anymore because the engine stuck. I gave the boat to a local mechanic which claimed that he repaired everything. After that the boat was 2 times in the water and every time a lot of gray/black smoke, the carburator did not react on the engine idle settings at all. So I decided to get into the carburator myself and found a problem in the part which is screwd in the holley carburator first stage middle with the number 5 (I dont know the english term, however, it was not screwed in good, so the gas ran beside it directly into the motor). The Air/Gas mix was also way to fat. After that is fixed now, I need the information how to flush the engine from the liquid gas in the exhaust. I think if I dont do that, the gas in the exhaust will make a little "peng" Can I just pump in a lot of water AFTER the water pump while the engine is turned off or will the water get thru the exhaust into the cylinders? thanks for any information |
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GlassSeeker
Grand Poobah Joined: November-26-2008 Location: Elk Grove, CA. Status: Offline Points: 2421 |
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if extra gas was pushed thru it will be in the oil, change the oil and filter and that should take care of it.
unless something extremely strange has occured your worries of gas in the exhaust are unfounded=forget about it. best way to use this site is to post pictures of what you are working on and then ask any questions you want. this will help to eliminate guesswork. |
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This is the life
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GlassSeeker
Grand Poobah Joined: November-26-2008 Location: Elk Grove, CA. Status: Offline Points: 2421 |
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I hope you have learned that the mechanic that can repair anything is a liar.
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This is the life
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GlassSeeker
Grand Poobah Joined: November-26-2008 Location: Elk Grove, CA. Status: Offline Points: 2421 |
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It also sounds a little like you may have water in the engine...gray and black smoke...
need more info |
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This is the life
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daniel1978
Groupie Joined: June-01-2013 Location: Lower Austria Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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Thank you for your replies!
Since the gray and black smoke ONLY was when the boat was startet (first time everything fine if it stood a Long time) turned of and startet again an hour later (when the carbornator was complete empty of gas because it ran down into the Motor), I don not think that there is a waterproblem. also there is no water missing in the cooling System. yes, I will Change the oil, and filter - can you tell me how the pump to drain the oil is called? I have to buy one... greetings from Austria - Keep you posted |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Daniel,
Check your oil pan for an oil drain hose connected at the bottom. It should have one. You put the hose through the garboard drain and the oil drains by gravity. |
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daniel1978
Groupie Joined: June-01-2013 Location: Lower Austria Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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8122pdbrainard,
thank you for your idea. Saidly, the boat is an european Version, so there is a oilsump under the Motor wich cannot be removed (unless I remove the Motor) so I can't reach the garboard drain from inside the boat. So a pump to stick ON the oil drain hose would be fine - I saw such a pump 15 years ago by a waterski Club and want one... greetings daniel |
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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I think this is what you are looking for.
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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daniel1978
Groupie Joined: June-01-2013 Location: Lower Austria Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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daniel1978
Groupie Joined: June-01-2013 Location: Lower Austria Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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Mealtime again!
Still is the question, how to clean the exhaust from unused gas. I really want to to that, becaus by my last try the engine did not start but quite a big Explosion was in the exhaust so that the waterclap at the Stern was destroyed... greetings daniel |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Hook the garden hose up to the exhaust manifold inlets and tilt the trailer down aft. |
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leeza
Newbie Joined: June-03-2013 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 1 |
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Hi, Check this link http://www.alliancetrademarine.com I Hope this info is very useful to you Leeza |
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Alliance Trade Marine
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daniel1978
Groupie Joined: June-01-2013 Location: Lower Austria Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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Mealtime again.
Thank you for your answers. So, I changed Oil and Filter, I disassambled the carbanator again and rechecked on the workbench: everything is leakproof. So, NO gas Comes out of the carbanator on the workbench, even with a lot of pressure thru the fuel line. I put it on the engine, and started about 30 seconds. Then I can see a lot of liquid gas thru the ventilation flap. How is that possible? May it be a Problem with the electric joke? greetings daniel |
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backfoot100
Platinum Member Joined: January-03-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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From ventilation flap I assume you are referring to the choke plate. If you have gas dripping into the throat of the carb after you shut it down, you have one of two problems:
Either the primary float is too high and needs to be adjusted down a little bit or the needle/seat set in the primary bowl is not sealing properly and letting gas past it. My bet is the float is too high. If you had it on the bench with a gas feed hooked up and pressurized and it wasn't leaking anywhere, I would say the needle/seat is OK. You need to pull the bowl off and check the float level and lower it of it's too high. |
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When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.
Eddie |
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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Daniel - the power valve (part that was loose) can get ruptured from backfire & cause flooding. FYI.
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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daniel1978
Groupie Joined: June-01-2013 Location: Lower Austria Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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Hello again!
Since the power valve is new and the engine did not run and did not backfire since it was installed, it can not be damaged. Yeasterday the carb was on the workbench, the needle adjustment checked, filled with gas and pressure and no gas ran out - so I dont think the Problem is there. I mean, if I give full throttle, and the air valves are open, I can see thru the carb into the engines air channel and THERE is liquid gas after a start attempt of the Motor. My theory is, that the choke valves of the Primary block do not open, so no air can geht thru the Primary carb block and liquid gas is sucked by the vaccum directly into the engine - is that possible? greetings daniel |
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daniel1978
Groupie Joined: June-01-2013 Location: Lower Austria Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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The last start attempt (without choke, choke valve manually opend) was again a disaster. Relly much gas ran thru the air channel, just on single fire attempt from the engine. Where do I get a carbonator in Austria?!
greetings daniel |
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backfoot100
Platinum Member Joined: January-03-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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Daniel,
When you are pressurizing that fuel feed to the carb on the bench, how many PSI are you running it up to? You may be using a different scale there such as BAR. Do you know how much pressure the fuel pump is putting on the fuel line? You haven't changed out the fuel pump have you? |
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When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.
Eddie |
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daniel1978
Groupie Joined: June-01-2013 Location: Lower Austria Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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Hi!
I have no exact pressurelevel I put to the carb - however, the needle is new and leveled exactly like in the restore kit told from holley. No I did not Change the pump... greetings daniel |
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backfoot100
Platinum Member Joined: January-03-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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If you've verified that the needle/seat isn't leaking, the float is adjusted properly, the fuel pump is not putting out too much pressure and the power valve is not blown, the only other option I would suggest is rebuild again with careful detail on cleaning and assembling.
Look at this thread. It sounds like virtually the same issues that you have. Everything else that normally fixes this issue has not been effective. I say to get the book recommended in the thread and rebuild it yourself. They are pretty easy if you have any amount of attention to detail. |
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When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.
Eddie |
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cphase
Gold Member Joined: May-11-2010 Location: Newnan, GA Status: Offline Points: 795 |
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Does your carb have a accelerator pump transfer tube between the metering block and the main body? You may have used the wrong gasket which can give you a rich issue because you are pulling fuel from the accelerator pump circuit.
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gR@HaM
Platinum Member Joined: May-01-2012 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 1265 |
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And when you sort yours out Daniel you can come to England and fix mine!!
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'82 Ski Tique
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daniel1978
Groupie Joined: June-01-2013 Location: Lower Austria Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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at gR@HaM
Of course! My Family and I are looking Forward to a sponsored trip to England - can we stay at your house? ;-) greetingsd aniel |
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daniel1978
Groupie Joined: June-01-2013 Location: Lower Austria Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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at cphase:
Yes, it has and I double checked gasket - please read always below. greetings daniel |
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daniel1978
Groupie Joined: June-01-2013 Location: Lower Austria Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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at backfoot100:
Hello! Acutally, I have two books (german of course) and disassembled and reasambled the whole Thing about 5 times now. Meanwhile ALL Fitting parts are changed 2 times, and I can not find the Problem. Please read also my next Posts... thanks daniel |
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daniel1978
Groupie Joined: June-01-2013 Location: Lower Austria Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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Pictures:
After Start attenpt: Manual opened valve to dry everything from liquid gas Engine Numbers: Engine overview Carb on Workbench - doesn't look everything fine?! Original float Setting: New Needle and new float Setting: Construct to test how much pressure needlse will take bevor leaking: please read next post for details |
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daniel1978
Groupie Joined: June-01-2013 Location: Lower Austria Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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Text:
FAQ: Q: Why are there a lot of scratches on parts where gasket should be? A: Because the original gaskets really stuck on the carb. I needed several hours to scratch them of. Q: What is with the power valve and gasket? A: Both new, thightend very strong Q: Whats with the needles? A: Both new, even the old ones look exactly the same I bould a test place to check the pressure with an handpump - the carbs primary did let gas thru at ~7 psi, so I changed the float to put more pressure on the needle (lower Pictures). After that nearly 10 psi would not leak. I installed the carb and the engine was flooded with gas. So. After I started thinking again, and called a few People which Claim to know about holley carbs, I removed ALL Spark Plugs and disabled the EMS, so I can run the starter (and with it the fuel pump) without the fireresistor and no danger. I saw and wounderd: a lot of gas coming out of the Primary. I changed the float again and the Primary was fine. But the secondary flooded - so I changed that too. I run the starter again and the carb DID NOT LEAK at all. I reassambled EMS and Sparks and Plugs and tryed to start. You guess right: engine flooded! So I checked the fuel pump pressure: about 6 PSI - everything fine I think... WHAT THE HELL IS GOING WRONG HERE?! Must I really order a replacement carb? PS: maybe a colleg from carinthia will borow me another one and I can check everything else.... PPS: Is it ok to test a Car Carb on dry land if the machine is running at all? greetings daniel |
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backfoot100
Platinum Member Joined: January-03-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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Daniel,
I must say that you're being a trooper about this. You're finding issues and doing the right things to fix them. You've changed the needle/seats, the floats, verified fuel pressure and gone back into the carb several times. The only thing that I haven't seen you do is change the float levels. If you set the floats the way that holley recommends (flip the bowl upside doan and set the top of the float level with the top of the float bowl) which is what it looks like in a couple of your pics, the float could be too high. It's a pretty common mishap anytime somebody does a rebuild. Not usually the case with a 1:23 tranny like yours but a possibility none the less. In one of your tests with everything disconnected, you replaced the primary float and then the secondary float and had no flooding. Reassembled everything and then had flooding again. That pretty much proves that the floats were the only thing that changed and everything looked good. The float levels may have been right on that fine line of being too high and were OK for the first test and not OK the next time. When you're doing your tests with carb on the bench, the angle of the carb is probably nice and flat so everything tests out OK. When you put it back on the engine the angle is different and the floats are too high. Try to lower the float a little bit and see what happens. To answer another question, yes, it wouldn't hurt to try an auto carb for test purposes. They are jetted differently though. One with an externally adjusted float would be easier to verify float levels to be an issue. |
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When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.
Eddie |
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daniel1978
Groupie Joined: June-01-2013 Location: Lower Austria Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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at backfoot100:
Before I start writing: Thank you for your time! Since my english is not that good - especially with These specialized Terms (you see, even my Internet Explorer changes a lot of lower case to upper case letters because it thinks we are writing german), act as you write to an idiot please! I did NOT Change the float itself - i don't have them Jet and there is no gas inside even when I disassemble the carb when it is full of gas. Take a look to this photo: -) It took a while, until I realised that I have to hold the gasbowl UPSIDE DOWN to adjust - even in german books that was not clear to me. -) I am thinking UNTIL NOW that the green and blue line should be parallel after adjustment when fuel bowl is upside down -) I am thinking UNTIL NOW that the gas sould be as high as the golden metal part in normal Operation, and the float is unter liquid gas until the area where it is getting thicker (parallel to the blue line) -) UNTIL NOW I Think that to adjust the float, I simple BEND the metal between float and needle at one Point - are you saying, that I have to bend TWO Points of this metal, that the float is again parallel BUT the distance of the new parallel is larger than now? -) should I think NOW, that any other lines have to be parallel after adjustment? please enlighten me.... PS: thanks for your nice words about my repair attempts - actually it is my first Problem which I could not solve until now. And I do a lot with pinball machines from the last 50 years (my Hobby) and I even changed gears in a MAN Autobus and repaired my Ferguson 35x Traktors diesel pump... |
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cphase
Gold Member Joined: May-11-2010 Location: Newnan, GA Status: Offline Points: 795 |
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In the picture above you see the accelerator pump transfer tube sticking out of the main body. Have you pulled the tube out of the main body and changed both small "O" rings? |
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