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Not another coil issue!?

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76 Ski Tique View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 76 Ski Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Not another coil issue!?
    Posted: August-16-2013 at 11:31pm
Hey guys been reading on here this evening before posting a repeat but nothing seems identicle.
So... Boat was running decent but the points needed replaced so I just went for an ei conversion from petronics. I installed it with the recommend flame thrower coil.
    After install had to adjust timing... No big deal. Called petronics about mounting the oil filled coil on its side and two techs said absolutely yes as long as the + and - were at three and nine. Great.
     After adjusting timing she ran a bit rough upon revving so in reading the trouble shooting guide jumped my coils wire to the 12v side of resistor and all is well I mean it runs like almost never before. So excited!
     Get down to water..start her up and after only 2 min of running she dies and won't start. After 5 min she lights but really wont perform above idle. I can't really figure it out. I have 12 volts to coil and it is hot but that was per pert tonics tech. Was able to get it to run flawlessly for like 20 secs after the river with water through it. Now it's just not running above idle and I think from my timing light I'm losing spark above 2500 rpm.
Please help! Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-16-2013 at 11:46pm
I think you know what to do--- your Tique has been running fine since 76 on points. Is it me or Petronics having alot of trouble lately?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 76 Ski Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-16-2013 at 11:57pm
Haha yes I understand. However after $150 in coil and conversion gotta give it a shot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boardersdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-17-2013 at 12:58am
Originally posted by 76 Ski Tique 76 Ski Tique wrote:

After adjusting timing she ran a bit rough upon revving so in reading the trouble shooting guide jumped my coils wire to the 12v side of resistor and all is well


What troubleshooting guide?

The Ignitor 12 V negative ground installation instructions do not say to put 12V to the coil +. Figure 2 on page 2 is for an Ignitor system without a ballast resistor, i.e. with an internally-resisted coil. The point they are trying (poorly) to make is that, if you have a ballast resistor, then as in Figure 3 you need to feed the conversion unit prior to the resistor. The Pertronix troubleshooting tip about coils tells you exactly how to check if you need a ballast resistor.

You may have exceeded 8 amps and damaged the coil.

The confusion in all of this is that an externally-resisted coil still needs a ballast resistor, but the electronic conversion units generally need to be fed from an ignition-switched 12V circuit.

You didn't say what coil you have. If it's internally-resisted, then you don't need a ballast resistor at all. You can always use a multi meter to measure the coil ohms and compare it to Pertronix requirements for total resistance (they probably want about 1.5 ohms total, adding any ballast resistor to the coil internal resistance).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 76 Ski Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-17-2013 at 1:27am
I think they called it there common questions. Yes in the ignitor intsall it says emphatically in red not to remove ballast resistor. I spoke with petronics today about this because the flame thrower coil says specifically not to be used with a resistor and that it needs 12v. Tech told me that the coil does need 12v but the ignitor install manual says to not remove it only because they are unsure of the coil you will be using. With their flamethrower coil you bypass resistor as per instruction. I understand the two directions contradiction but they said that was a safeguard for a different coil....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boardersdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-17-2013 at 1:45am
If your coil is internally resisted, then everything in your last post sounds correct to me. In that case the resistor could be removed.

They have three canister versions of the flame thrower coils...

flame thrower -- based on what you wrote, this is probably what you have. But they have 1.5 and 3.0 ohm primary resistance values available, so I would still measure it to know what I had.

flame thrower II -- "super low" 0.6 Ohm primary resistance

flame thrower III -- "ultra low" 0.32 primary resistance

Make sure you know what you've got.

Have you checked the voltage at the Pertronix feed wire when it runs poorly or dies? I had a wiring problem in another boat years ago where a Pertronix conversion got less and less voltage as the engine compartment warmed up, until the conversion would shut down.

Steve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 76 Ski Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-17-2013 at 2:01am
I have the flame thrower 1 with 1.5 ohms.
As to the "feed" wire I'm assuming is the red wire from positive side of coil to ei conversion.
It's only a two wire one red. Positive side ....black to neg. on coil.... I didn't check that voltage but I would be the same as coil if I'm thinking correctly. Like 11.98 on meter
Thanks for help btw
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M3Fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-17-2013 at 9:33am
Advance weights moving freely and springs intact? Always worth checking!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 76 Ski Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-17-2013 at 9:58am
That's a good point and the answer is yes. However thats kinda where my knowledge of working with a distributer internals stops.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 76 Ski Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-17-2013 at 10:02am
Update. After much late reading tonight I realized that I had just put the coil ignition wire on the different pole of the ballast resistor instead of jumping over the resistor with a jump wire from pole to pole once I corrected this so far she runs very smooth and after 7-10 min of driveway run time various RPMs the coil is warm to the touch at best and she is purring like a kitten. Does that make any sense to you guys?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-17-2013 at 10:39am
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

I think you know what to do--- your Tique has been running fine since 76 on points. Is it me or Petronics having alot of trouble lately?


True Dat Gary! Everyone always points a bad finger at points. They worked just fine on engines for 70 years or so.....

600+ points hours here and still ticking. The Chevy for the Skylark will be points as well.

Glad to hear the Tique is running right!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 76 Ski Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-17-2013 at 12:32pm
Headed to the river will check back with results. Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 76 Ski Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-17-2013 at 3:05pm
Stuck on the river. Very frustrated. Boat ran great for two minute warm up. Then great for 45 secs of the dock.wont rev above 2500 without shudder and stall. Help!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boardersdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-17-2013 at 4:06pm
Did you confirm that you still have 12V at the coil + when the trouble is occurring?


Originally posted by 76 Ski Tique 76 Ski Tique wrote:

I realized that I had just put the coil ignition wire on the different pole of the ballast resistor instead of jumping over the resistor with a jump wire from pole to pole


Not really. I don't know about the wire colors on the 76, but on the 80's the purple ignition wire goes from the ignition switch through the harness and plug to the ballast resistor, then from the other side of the resistor to the coil +. That's it. So moving the coil + wire to the same side of the resistor as the ignition wire is equivalent to putting a jumper across the resistor.

Have you checked your choke when you have trouble? It's electric, and you've been messing with the engine wiring. The choke gets fed with 12V igntion switched. It may have been connected to the 12V ingition feed side of the ballast resistor, and if you somehow disconnected it, it's not going to open. Then it would run like crap when warm....

There could also be an exciter wire (probably green or yellow) from the 12V ignition to the alternator.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boardersdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-17-2013 at 4:07pm
Hmm, I'm assuming the 76 choke was electric, but I don't know that for sure.......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 76 Ski Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-17-2013 at 4:55pm
Yes choke has 12v. Im stumped .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boardersdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-17-2013 at 5:01pm
I assume you pulled the flame arrestor and confirmed that the choke is opening.

If everything else checks out, the Pertronix unit or the coil could be bad. It has been known to happen. Once you get a good one, they can run a long time. I have a Pertronix on my Mercruiser 140 that has been going strong for more than a dozen years, knock on wood.

Have you tried your old coil with the Pertronix unit? Measure the old coil resistance--if around 0.5 to 0.8 ohms, you'll need to have the ballast resistor wired in before the old coil. I'm assuming your ballast resistor is around 0.75 to 1 ohms.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 76 Ski Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-17-2013 at 8:44pm
Can i have the unit and coil tested? Yes choke was open. Tried the other coil nothing doing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 76 Ski Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-18-2013 at 5:17pm
Now I'm dealing with no spark after the top of distributer cap. I have juice to the top rotor contact but not getting any spark at any plugs. Bad cap and rotor? If timing was off becuse of distributer moving would I loose spark to all cylinders?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-19-2013 at 12:23pm
I did have a boat one time that the electric choke was bad and after it was at full heat it would short out the ignition key feed and make it not rev over about 4000 rpms.

Checking Voltage output while this happens can lead you to something like that.

I have seen worn distributor bearings cause to much clearance between the cap and rotor when everything is heat soaked and expanded. One customer of mine installed a rubber o ring under the rotor to tighten the clearance and that worked for a summer. He is back to the same problem. Now its a new distributor or try to get the original rebuilt.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 76 Ski Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-21-2013 at 1:23am
Ok thanks. Ill be sure to check the choke for a ground as well as other grounds on the boat. I might go back to points for the weekend if all works out return the ei
Diasapointed for sure but...oh well. Thanks for all the help guys! Keep you posted
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 76 Ski Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-21-2013 at 1:35am
Hey That ignition key feed ground makes me think. When im cranking to start sometimes all gauges go all the way off or left like theres no power until you let off the kry then they all come back. Could this be a sigh of a bad ground?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-21-2013 at 9:09am
Originally posted by 76 Ski Tique 76 Ski Tique wrote:

Hey That ignition key feed ground makes me think. When im cranking to start sometimes all gauges go all the way off or left like theres no power until you let off the kry then they all come back. Could this be a sigh of a bad ground?


The key switch just turns on/off the +12V side of the battery. There is no ground involved, unless you trace the wire through the ignition coil & distributor.

The gauges also do not have a ground (other than the backlighting) - they rely on the sensors to complete the circuit to ground.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 76 Ski Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-27-2013 at 2:20am
Hey guys update. Sorry been away. Ordered new cap and rotor from skidim. Checked and cleaned all grounds.
We're all good to go boat runs like new. Put 9 hrs on this weekend not one miss. Very happy with everything. Thanks for the help! sometimes electrical can be a bit tricky.
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