351-W carb? |
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nautique74
Groupie Joined: October-29-2004 Location: Georgia Status: Offline Points: 56 |
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Posted: June-23-2014 at 4:39pm |
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I have a 1974 Ski Nautique, what Holley 4-barrel carb came on the 351 Winsor?
I'm looking at replacing it with a Edelbrock. Last summer I was having problems with the boat cranking after it ran a while, smelled like gas and wouldn't crank. I tried a tune up; plugs, dist.cap, rotory, points, condinser. A local mechanic said that the seats/seals may not be holding the fuel pressure when it sits a while and letting the gas drip down into the engine, causing it to flood. He also said that Holley's do not rebuild very well and he suggested replacement with a Edelbrock or something else other than Holley. |
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1974 Ski Nautique
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backfoot100
Platinum Member Joined: January-03-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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well Frank,
Just some confirmation needed first. The boat starts OK cold and then when you shut it down after warming up good, I assume that it cranks over but doesn't start very easily? Then maybe starts right up after sitting for a period time? Your terminology is confusing. If that's the case, it's a fairly common occurance that can have a couple different fixes. First, start it and warm it up. Remove the flame arrestor and then shut it down. Look down the carb throat right away and see if gas is dripping down onto the throttle plates. I'm guessing it is. If yes, the needle/seat in the float bowl is dirty and not closing completely or the float is adjusted too high in the float bowl and keeping the needle/seat open. Cleaning the needle/seat fixes the first one and adjusting the float down fixes the second. Both scenarios require that the fuel bowl be removed. Holley's rebuild perfectly fine as long as you have a genuine Holley rebuild kit. Anything else is pretty much junk. There have been some quality issues recently with the needle/seats in some rebuild kits but in most instances replacing with the originals has fixed that also. Your mechanic is either too damn lazy or too damn ignorant to fix the problem. I would suggest that you find a new one or we can walk you through fixing it yourself. If you happen to get a new carb, just make sure it's a 600CFM Marine unit. Bolt it on with a new gasket and go. Several here recently have went with a Quick Fuel M600 and have had excellent results. It's a Holley design that is much easier to make adjustments on. Edelbrock makes a good carb with mixed reviews. They're either loved or hated. Hope this helps. |
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When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.
Eddie |
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racingnc
Senior Member Joined: July-14-2010 Location: Mooresville NC Status: Offline Points: 170 |
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Want to fix mine backfoot....
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backfoot100
Platinum Member Joined: January-03-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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Absolutely. Just get it down to FL and I'll fix it right up. |
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When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.
Eddie |
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Waterdog
Grand Poobah Joined: April-27-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2020 |
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Holley's are simple and easy to understand if you want to learn.
There are a kazillion more Holleys than ALL the other carbs out there combined. That being said everything machanical wears out sometime. |
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jkilbert
Newbie Joined: June-18-2012 Location: McKeesport, Pa Status: Offline Points: 18 |
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Holley carbs aren't difficult to rebuild if you take your time with it. Buy high quality kits and try to use the blue. Alcohol resistant gaskets and accelerator pump. If you go to Jegs or Summit Racing you can find a lot more alcohol resistant hardware because of alcohol race cars.
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1979 Ski Nautique
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mamigacz
Groupie Joined: June-08-2014 Location: Wisconsin Status: Offline Points: 96 |
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I'm very curious if this issue gets resolved. I don't have this issue anymore with my efi conversion, but it was extremely annoying before the conversion.
I rebuilt the carb and the problem continued I replaced the needle and seat twice and the problem continued I adjusted the floats to spec and problem continued I adjusted the floats lower than spec and the problem continued. I watched for venturi dripping after shutdown (approximately 2 minutes) and noticed nothing. I replaced the coil and the problem continued. The hard start never left me sitting, but it was extremely annoying when someone other than me tried starting the boat. Whats even more troubling is my Camaro has an edelbrock 600cfm carb on it and it has the same issue. |
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jkilbert
Newbie Joined: June-18-2012 Location: McKeesport, Pa Status: Offline Points: 18 |
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A lot of the problems now with carbureted engines stem from the gasoline itself. The oil companies have engineered the gas to work better in fuel injected engines. One of the things that has happened is that the new formulations have a lower vapor pressure, meaning that they boil at a lower temp. On fuel injected engines is isn't a problem because you have a feed and return line. Fuel doesn't. End up sitting on a hot engine. It is constantly recirculated back to the tank. Injected engine also operate under pressure usually around 60psi at the rail. In the carb'd engines fuel sits there in the bowls and boils off. This allows more vapor than liquid to move through the carb. Hence....vapor lock is more of a problem. I found this out from a mechanic friend of mine when I was having this issue with the Mopar 440 in my Winnebago. His "cure" on his race car was to use a cold can. That works fine for racing but not practical for boating or the street.
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1979 Ski Nautique
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backfoot100
Platinum Member Joined: January-03-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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If the fuel wasn't dripping after shutdown you had a different issue. Was the choke fully open when warmed up? |
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When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.
Eddie |
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mamigacz
Groupie Joined: June-08-2014 Location: Wisconsin Status: Offline Points: 96 |
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Yep, Its wide open after warm up. The Camaro too.
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backfoot100
Platinum Member Joined: January-03-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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I guess I would like to know what your definition is for hard start then. |
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When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.
Eddie |
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mamigacz
Groupie Joined: June-08-2014 Location: Wisconsin Status: Offline Points: 96 |
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Cranking for more than 5 seconds before starting.
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lakedog55
Gold Member Joined: November-11-2010 Location: Lake Weir Fl Status: Offline Points: 835 |
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I wouldn't use a Eldebrock for an anchor
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Lakedog55
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backfoot100
Platinum Member Joined: January-03-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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So it cranked for more than 5 seconds and then started without touching anything else. Or did you have to pump the throttle, hold it wide open or do anything else with it? |
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When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.
Eddie |
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GottaSki
Grand Poobah Joined: April-21-2005 Location: NE CT Status: Offline Points: 3359 |
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just Crack the throttle before starting. Your pin should already be out anyway, most times.
If thats not acceptable, make sure you base timing is at least 10 btdc, no less, and set the idle mix screws to the strongest and smoothest idle possible while in forward gear, not neutral, quite equivelent to the technique with carburated auto trans cars, set idle mix when in drive with wheels chocked. This also often cures an off idle stumble Doing otherwise sets the mix too lean for a clean restart with no throttle. |
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
River Rat to Mole |
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nautique74
Groupie Joined: October-29-2004 Location: Georgia Status: Offline Points: 56 |
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Correct, but it doesn't matter if it has been sitting a period of time, unless it's the next day. This is kinda of what happens; A. It starts right up at home, run a minute, shut it off and head to the lake. B. 45-minuets later I'm putting it in the water, it turns over but takes a couple of minutes to start. C. I run around on the lake a while, runs great, 30-45 minutes, shut it down to chill awhile. D. Climb back in, 1/2-1-2-3 hours later, it turns over but takes several minutes to even start hitting. It just turns over and over for several minutes then Pup...pup-up...pup....pup-pup-pup..pup-up...pup-pup-pup..boom-boom-boom-varoom with a gasy smell and smoke out the exhaust. I've tried to start it diffrently each time; with no throttle, a little throttle, wide open and everything in between. |
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1974 Ski Nautique
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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2 things to check next time you go to the lake: Strength of spark & fuel dripping down into the carb throat. You may even have both problems at the same time.
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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lakedog55
Gold Member Joined: November-11-2010 Location: Lake Weir Fl Status: Offline Points: 835 |
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It's funny how great they seem to run on the trailer.
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Lakedog55
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lakedog55
Gold Member Joined: November-11-2010 Location: Lake Weir Fl Status: Offline Points: 835 |
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And what else happening in the chill time?
points or electronic ignition? |
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Lakedog55
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nautique74
Groupie Joined: October-29-2004 Location: Georgia Status: Offline Points: 56 |
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It has points. The chill time...A dip in the lake and a couple of beers. |
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1974 Ski Nautique
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nautique74
Groupie Joined: October-29-2004 Location: Georgia Status: Offline Points: 56 |
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I'll check this weekend for the gas drip. I changed spark plugs, points, rotary button, condenser & dist.cap about the only thing left is wires & coil. Once it's running it runs great at all speeds, No skips or misses. |
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1974 Ski Nautique
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lakedog55
Gold Member Joined: November-11-2010 Location: Lake Weir Fl Status: Offline Points: 835 |
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Might as well throw some wires on it. Coil is usually good or bad. I would switch it over to electronic, but that's just me.
Starting problem sounds like carb. Fuel drip will cause it to flood. just for giggles drain your bowls. |
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Lakedog55
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nautique74
Groupie Joined: October-29-2004 Location: Georgia Status: Offline Points: 56 |
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I checked for the fuel drip this past weekend. When I take the flame arrestor off the choke valve is blocking my view and when I push it open, gas will squirt in the carb but I don't see any dripping after that.
By the way it did start better this weekend, it took a minute but not several minutes. I had topped the gas tank off with high test instead of regular. |
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1974 Ski Nautique
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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Setting Chris, Tom or Eddie up for the Alley-oop |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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Everyone must be too busy doing their actual jobs.
I can't wait any more. It sounds like the choke is not opening, or not opening consistently or reliably. If the boat is warmed up, and your choke plate is closed, we'll there's your problem right therrr' |
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backfoot100
Platinum Member Joined: January-03-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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You did test this warm correct? If so, your choke should be open. If the choke wasn't open, it's either misadjusted or it's just plain worn out and needs replacing. If it's not opening, it will start like crap when it's warm. When cold, it should have a 1/16'-1/8" opening gap. Just turn the key on (don't even start the engine) and you should be able to watch the choke open. It'll take about 45 seconds to a minute. It needs to open up completely so it's straight up and down. If it isn't doing that, then you should first verify that you have 12 volts to the choke coil (the round black thing on the side of the of the carb) when you turn the key on. If you do then the choke coil needs to be replaced. Secondly, I have no idea how just pushing the choke plate open would give you a shot of fuel. Or did you manually open the choke plate and then operate the throttle? I'm confused on this. |
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When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.
Eddie |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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Opening the throttle to full will force the choke open usually.
I'm thinking he opened the choke with the throttle and got an accelerator pump shot. |
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GottaSki
Grand Poobah Joined: April-21-2005 Location: NE CT Status: Offline Points: 3359 |
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Yes, we may have a nomenclature issue to address!
Lookup Choke plate, throttle plate, accel pump nozzel, and booster nozzzles. errant drips will be from the booster nozzles. |
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
River Rat to Mole |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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I have this book and like it a lot. It may not be the most comprehensive, but it packs most everything the casual user would want to know into a quick, easy read. Pound for pound, it packs a lot of knowledge:
http://www.amazon.com/Holly-Carburetor-Handbook-4150-Hp473/dp/0895860473/ref=pd_sim_b_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=04QYYHF8QM84ZB2WDPAR I have this DVD too: http://www.amazon.com/Holley-36-378-Carburetor-Installation-Tuning/dp/B000M2AM22/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y A lot of what's in the DVD can be found on youtube, but it's nice to have it all packaged together. Plus, on DVD, the whole family can enjoy in the comfort of your living room, haha. |
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