Long Running Stalling then No Start Issue - GT40 |
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StevoDevo
Newbie Joined: July-20-2014 Location: Bend, OR Status: Offline Points: 30 |
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Posted: July-26-2014 at 1:02pm |
Hi Guys,
I own a 97 MB Sports LS200 ski boat with a GT-40 engine that has a Fuel Control Cell. For the past 2 years, the boat has been having this intermittent issue where it will stall while it's driving and won't restart for a long period of time (from hours to days). When it stalls while driving it won't restart. The motor cranks just fine and it turns over and over but never starts. This weekend was a great example. Yesterday we skied hard from 9-1pm just fine without an issue. Then when we tried to start the boat up after lunch, it wouldn't start. Just cranked and turned but didn't start. We couldn't get it going for the rest of the day. Had to be towed in! Earlier this week I changed the fuel filter and tube inside the FCC and yesterday it ran so much better than it has in the past. The boat maintained it speed at 15-20mph better than it ever has - it usually surged around at those speeds. My hunch is that it is a fuel delivery issue. The boat cranks great, but it sounds like not enough fuel is getting through. What's confusing me is that that last 2 times I've gone out it has done the same thing - ran great in the morning - sat for an hour at lunch and then won't start again after lunch! What else can I try? I'm going to try change the anti-siphon valve next, but I also read on these forums about possibly changing the relays and checking the fuel pressure. Wanted to get your thoughts on what the best next step would be - or if anyone has any ideas as to why the boat is acting like it is. I'd put money on the fact that if I threw the boat in the water today it would start just fine! Makes it so tough to troubleshoot! Any help would be appreciated! Steve |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Online Points: 3735 |
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I would buy or borrow a fuel pressure gauge and hook it up to the fuel rail on your fuel injection. Verify you have fuel pressure and it is the correct fuel pressure. I would have to look up the Pro Boss fuel pressure.
Also verify you have spark to your spark plugs. Take one plug wire off and plug it into a known good spark plug, you can buy one for $3 and keep it on hand for testing. Hook the wire to your test plug, ground the test plug to the engine and turn the key, you should see the blue spark snapping on the plug with every revolution. Let us know the results and you can start chasing your problem. When I need a fuel pressure test I use the gauge set from my Air Conditioning tools, the gauge hooks up and reads the pressure just fine for me. I don't think my gauge can tell if it is Freon pressure or fuel pressure. All these tests need to be done while your engine is refusing to run. If it is in running condition you will not find the problem. |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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Take a look at this thread also:
http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25584&title=poor-mans-gt40-diagnosis I'd be thinking relays. Keith's TFI post towards the end sounds similar to your issue but it's less common. |
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gun-driver
Grand Poobah Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4127 |
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It's the TFI
If I were a bett'en man I would bet that if you open the engine cover for a while so it can cool it will start back up |
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lewy2001
Grand Poobah Joined: March-19-2008 Location: NSW Australia Status: Offline Points: 2234 |
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Check for spark when it will not restart. Also you should hear both pumps do their prime cycle with just ignition on not cranking. This is always a good stating point.
Next step is check fuel pressure if you have a suitable gauge. |
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If you're going through hell, keep going
89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
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StevoDevo
Newbie Joined: July-20-2014 Location: Bend, OR Status: Offline Points: 30 |
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Thanks for the idea. I pulled the heat sink and TFI out and the heat sink is full of oxidation of sorts. Do you think this could be the problem? Can I just soak the heat sink in bicarb soda to remove all the oxidation - or do you think I need to purchase a new one? |
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gun-driver
Grand Poobah Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4127 |
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See if it will clean up with a soak and maybe some aluminum cleaner and a wire brush first and replace the TFI.
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13513 |
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Check the spark condition and fuel pressure when it does run too so when it doesn't you have a standard to compare to. |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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Lewy is right on though, many hundreds of dollars can be saved by bringing along a timing light and when it dies looking for a spark. If there is no spark you can stop looking at the entire fuel system, if there is a spark you can stop looking at the entire ignition system.
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StevoDevo
Newbie Joined: July-20-2014 Location: Bend, OR Status: Offline Points: 30 |
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I'll go buy a new TFI today. I found them at Napa. Is it ok to purchase one from an auto parts store? Are they the same for boats?
Then will get onto the spark testing |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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I think the TFI is one part that actually is ok to get through an auto parts store. Read Keith's posts about the TFI about halfway down:
http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25584&PN=2&title=poor-mans-gt40-diagnosis to make sure you're getting the correct one. Their was some business about the black vs grey, remote mount etc. |
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StevoDevo
Newbie Joined: July-20-2014 Location: Bend, OR Status: Offline Points: 30 |
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Thanks! I read the post and got the part number from Keith!
So I went to Napa today and got the TFI and managed to get it off the Heat Sink. I still don't know if I should purchase a new heat sink or if my one should just be cleaned, or if it's just fine the way it is (see the pics above). If I need to purchase a new one - any idea of what the part number for that would be? |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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+1 on what gun driver says, just clean it the best you can,the money you save use for gas!
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13513 |
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That rather fury oxide coating won't transfer heat as well, so just get as much off as possible.
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StevoDevo
Newbie Joined: July-20-2014 Location: Bend, OR Status: Offline Points: 30 |
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Hi Guys,
I've cleaned off that oxide coating and replace the TFI and just need to find a time to drop the boat in the water to test it out. I also replaced the 2 relays just in case! I did purchase a fuel pressure gauge, but have no idea where to connect the thing to test the pressure. Can anyone guide me in the right direction? Thanks a bunch! Steve |
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gun-driver
Grand Poobah Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4127 |
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Standing at the front of the motor with your back to the windshield there will be a chrome tube (fuel rail) on the front left top of the motor with a black cap on it (schrader valve) . It's a valve like on a tire where you add air, that's where you can check the pressure.
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StevoDevo
Newbie Joined: July-20-2014 Location: Bend, OR Status: Offline Points: 30 |
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Hi Gun-Driver - thanks very much! Found the valve - now just need to take the boat out and wait for it to fail and then test the pressure!
Should I test the pressure when trying to start the boat? Or just when the key it turned on (before the crank?) |
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gun-driver
Grand Poobah Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4127 |
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When you turn the key on pumps should run for 2 seconds. When cranking you should have 39 +\- 3 psi so I would assume that when you turn the key to on it should be the same. At WOT it should be 31+\-3psi
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StevoDevo
Newbie Joined: July-20-2014 Location: Bend, OR Status: Offline Points: 30 |
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Hi All,
Well took the boat out today and skiied from 10-1pm without issue. Docked for lunch and then minutes after taking off and driving at about 30mph the boat spluttered and stalled and wouldn't start. Luckily I had my fuel pressure tester and hooked it up (a tiny bit of fuel came out as I was screwing it in but the pressure tester showed 0 fuel pressure. How could that be? I took it off and some fuel came out of the tester and then I reconnected it. Still 0 pressure when ignition was turned on. The fuel pump did prime but 0 pressure. What now? Could it be the anti siphon valve preventing the fuel being delivered to the engine? Or something else? Thanks for all your help! |
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gun-driver
Grand Poobah Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4127 |
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Dam!
Did it finally start after a while? Did you check for spark when it would not start? Did you replace your TFI? I'll have to pull the book out I think I remember reading something to the effect of if the computer doesn't detect an ignition signal it won't allow the pumps to run.(safety) |
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StevoDevo
Newbie Joined: July-20-2014 Location: Bend, OR Status: Offline Points: 30 |
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Another update. So towed the boat back home yesterday and this morning I connected up the pressure tester and it showed about 30 psi when I turned the ignition key and then 40psi when I cranked it. The boat started just fine (first time).
So yesterday on the water when I was having the no-start issue the psi was 0. So definitely zoning in on the issue here but don't know where to go from here. What would cause there to be no fuel pressure? |
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gun-driver
Grand Poobah Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4127 |
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I just checked the book and I still believe it may be the TFI.
What could be happening is on the initial turn of the key the pump will run but if the ECA does not get a signal during cranking from the PIP it will shut down the pumps due to a no spark signal. If it were me I would change the TFI. It seems like it runs fine till the TFI heats up then gets weak spark (hesitation/cutting out) then no spark which shuts down the fuel pumps. So you can go a couple of ways 1) Change the TFI see what happens 2) The next time it happens check for spark, if the TFI isn't sending voltage to the distributor the pumps aren't going to run 3) Next time you can jump the STO as in the picture posted then the pumps will stay running regardless of the PIP signal then it should have fuel pressure and if it doesn't start check for spark that way we can separate the issue, fuel or spark. |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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The TFI has been replaced at this point though, right?
Fuel Pump relay? The relay is going to be more prone to acting up when the engine is hot. That hasn't been done yet, right? |
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StevoDevo
Newbie Joined: July-20-2014 Location: Bend, OR Status: Offline Points: 30 |
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Hi Guys,
I have replaced the TFI and did replace both relays at the same time. So if there is no spark, would the fuel pressure drop to 0? Also, every time this has happened has been after a 3-4 hour morning run, then dock the boat for lunch for about an hour, and then only when we have idled out and have revved up for a minute or so will it splutter, stall and won't restart. That is what is confusing me! It's like something happened while it was sitting doing nothing at lunch! Seems to happen pretty reliably now! Could it be something is getting clogged, and then on the drive home (on the trailer) it unclogs? Thanks for all your help! |
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gun-driver
Grand Poobah Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4127 |
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This is really bad because my '95 is doing the same thing.
Starts on first bump of the starter when we first start out, runs great all day even after shutting off to change skiers then… when we stop for lunch and a swim for about an hour BANG no start. Leave the cover open for a half hour or so… starts right up and runs as normal. Yours as with mine something is getting heat soaked as it sits with the engine cover closed causing the no spark or no fuel pressure condition and I thought I had it pinned down to the TFI as I have one sitting in my truck waiting to be installed. So that leaves us with the two tests I mentioned check for spark if yes, jump the STO to run the pumps and go from there. But I don’t think it’s the pumps since they work fine all morning till you park with a hot motor. ???I wonder if the pump is crapping out and getting hot but as long as fuel is traveling through it, it stays cool enough to work but once you shut down they heat up to the point of not working till you open the cover till they cool again??? I’m just thinking out loud through my fingers. LEWY HELP I’M STUMPED. |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Online Points: 3735 |
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Just an idea after reading, open the Engine cover when you stop for lunch. Let most of the heat escape. Might keep you running.
I agree with the fuel pump test, connect a hot wire to the pump and see if you get fuel pressure. Should eliminate the pump question and lead you closer to a solution. After a day on the water I always open the engine cover when we get home and let out all the heat and moisture. I close it hours later after it has cooled down to avoid moisture damage. |
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StevoDevo
Newbie Joined: July-20-2014 Location: Bend, OR Status: Offline Points: 30 |
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Thanks guys - so tell me more about this fuel pump test? Where do I find a hot wire and where is the pump?! I know - simple questions, but I'm still learning my way around this boat of mine!! Appreciate the help.
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gun-driver
Grand Poobah Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4127 |
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The STO is hangs on the rear of the motor by the circuit breakers.
You need to make a jumper that will fit in the STO (with an inline fuse preferred) and an alligator clip or something similar. Plug into the STO then connect to a good ground source, this will run both pumps full time taking all other sensors out of the loop. So if both pumps run and the motor starts the problem is in the pump circuit somewhere. If it does not start but has fuel pressure then we need to look at the ignition side of the puzzle. |
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gun-driver
Grand Poobah Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4127 |
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Yes this is an option but I perfer to get to the root of the problem so the system works as it should. |
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StevoDevo
Newbie Joined: July-20-2014 Location: Bend, OR Status: Offline Points: 30 |
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Okay I see the cable in the pic. What rated fused are you using? And what's the connector on the cable into the STO look like?
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