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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7953 |
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Tim had pointed us to these guys for SS tubing for our exhaust as well as exhaust through hulls. Next time we'll drop the SS tubing and just do rubber hose from the manifolds to the through hulls. I don't see the benefit for adding 30" of tubing under the floor.
http://www.verociousmotorsports.com/Shop-by-Brand?search=Verocious+Tubing |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Butt welt fittings are available as well |
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3241 |
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Yes Pete, I do value originality where it's practical. Thanks for the tubing selection help. As you know not much of the exhaust system beyond the risers is visible.I was told by someone either at Gates or Trident that the original formed rubber elbows are NLA and since he hasn't seen my name in Forbes I certainly don't have enough money to have some one-offs made. . My boat had a mess on there that went into the garbage. I am soliciting practical suggestions.
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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I do like Bruce's idea and many have done it. Rubber all the way back does lesson the connection points and thus the potential for leak points. |
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3241 |
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Gary, as you know the risers point directly at the stringers and a bend in the pipe is necessary to clear the stringers on the outboard side, then another bend would be necessary to bring them tight and parallel to the stringers to fit without cutting the pan. I believe the radius at the hull is 112*. it would take several bends or a bunch of joints to make the run. The trident silicone hose looks like a pretty good option but according to it's minimum bending radius will not make those bends properly. I know you have worked yours out nicely, but it seems so easy to have a shop fabricate one piece pipe assemblies for each side Does that make sense or am I out there with this. I am not ready to have them made yet, I still have a lot of work to do. I am going to the fabrication shop tomorrow to see how my pylon, ring and finger are coming. I would like to ask them about this project.
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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John,
The Escort in my Tique had the same problem with the elbows from the logs aiming directly at the stringers. The PO had a couple elbows welded together to overcome the issue. |
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3241 |
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The H/M manifolds require a much tighter bend than your Ford Escort motor Pete. There is really not much room to make it happen. It doesn't help that the risers point forward either. That is the first time I have heard of that engine.
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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JDD33
Senior Member Joined: October-20-2012 Location: Natick, MA Status: Offline Points: 499 |
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On the West marine website, they have a listing for 3" 45 deg rubber exhaust elbows and a listing for a 45 deg fiberglass exhaust elbow. Don't know if that would be enough to make the rest up with rubber exhaust hose back to the exhaust tips.
John |
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Old school goin back to school!
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21169 |
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Like Bruce pointed out, verocious is the place for SS bends.
I do think that a good corrugated hose could make that bend... Though wrestling it on may not be a lot of fun. A 351w would go a ways towards helping the width issue, ha. Adding metal to the exhaust path won't do much to keep the boat quiet... Hopefully you are on good terms with your neighbors! I am not overly popular on my lake. |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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You could be right Tim a corrugated hose just might make it. I'll tell you one thing I learned recently,wrestling with a HM manifold seems 10 times easier now than a cast iron PCM. The aluminum ones are a one person job. I have read the comments about you guy's changing them,it just didn't sink in how difficult it really is. I ended up doing it myself but it was time consuming. If it was me I would mount and align the motor first then mount up the exhaust when the time comes John no sense trying to move the engine around with the hoses fighting you too.
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3241 |
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Good news on two fronts today
1. I picked up my ring and finger today. I understand why they break so easily. I thought it was plated stainless, it's brass. The ring is essentially brazed onto the finger, ground down for appearance, then plated. The ring was repaired with a TIG process and should be much stronger now. I am going to dress the weld to look better and send it off to the plater who undoubtedly need to do more work before plating it. 2. I am almost finished with the other project that has taken some time from the Mustang. I picked it up from the interior shop today and took a little ride. It needs to have a few final adjustments after which I will issue a proclamation declaring it "finished". In case Pete trips over this post, it IS original. It feels really good to be pushing ahead and getting something done on the Mustang for a change. Green lake is in my sights. I did bite off another small project assisting a friend with an engine overhaul on a Ford GPW but I shouldn't have much more than a couple days involved in that project. |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7953 |
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That is a beautiful Vette, but is that louvered hood original?
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3241 |
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Thanks for the compliment, Yes, it's original and, It's not really louvered. It's a cosmetic treatment and unique to the 1958. |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7953 |
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It's a gorgeous car. I'd be afraid to drive it.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Fantastic work on the vette John!
Regarding the exhaust hose. You may want to consider putting the hose on the manifolds first and then bolting them up to the engine. On my X, I actually dropped the engine down into the boat and onto the exhaust hoses. It was easier than fighting the upward pulling on the hose. Did the shop tell you how they got the ring and finger out of the pylon? |
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3241 |
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They said just heat and lube just like anyone would do. The best part is it only cost about what a really nice dinner out with the wife would have. Jan really felt for me when I broke it, she is such a sweetie!
I am really considering having stainless fabbed up for the exhaust by the place that pulled the finger. It would be really nice to easily slip the exhaust on and there would be no fears of the hose causing a restriction from a partial collapse from being bent too drastically. I have the glass rear seat so it is hidden from view and the riser connection isn't original on anyones as far as I know, since the molded rubber elbows are only a memory. I was very surprised that the guy from either Trident or Gates was familiar with the original system. Maybe I'm not the first one to call about it. The mess that came off was just that, but I found that both hoses had collapsed internally to the point where I believe they were restricting the flow, but there were so many things wrong with the set up. It had Osco manifolds (2.5") and the smaller hoses had just been stuffed into the 3" original hoses. |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21169 |
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Clearly you haven't worked with 3" corrugated exhaust hose before! Whether or not the bends can be made with it is questionable (but i would venture a guess that it's doable) but it's definitely not going to kink or deform. Soft wall would for sure and even hard wall might... But the corrugated stuff is seriously sturdy. It's also going to look closest to original and by far be the cheapest option. I'd give it a try before committing to a custom stainless fab project. I'll warn you that my SS pipe project was closer to my hiteks in cost than you'd probably expect! |
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3241 |
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Tim, It's no secret that I am a novice. This is my first inboard. I have never worked with any exhaust hose. Your dual exhaust conversion looks great and I thought I would like one similarly constructed. I don't expect the value of the boat to increase significantly due to any of the work I am doing. If you and Pete think corrugated is the way to go because it is a better solution than stainless I believe you. I don't mind throwing money at this project, but I don't want to throw it away on something that won't work properly.
This corrugated hose has the tightest bend radius of any I have found. It appears that it may work with an 11" radius, but the bottom bend would be tight. |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21169 |
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If that's the same triden blue hose I'm thinking of, it supposed to be pretty good- and priced accordingly!
On the regular corrugated hose, the bend radius is good information as to whether it'll fit into place... But don't worry, you won't be exceeding it and causing any issues if you're installing by hand. It's tough stuff, it definitely won't kink! |
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3241 |
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I'm sure it is good stuff but certainly not a low budget item at around $84 / ' plus shipping.
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21169 |
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In that case, forget it. I'd be tempted to buy a stick of the regular corrugated ($15-20/ft) long enough to do an entire side. If the bends can't be made then you have enough hose to cut it in half and do the straight runs on both sides after you make your down pipes. If it turns out that you can make the bends, order another stick!
Either way, the recommendations above are good ones- getting those hoses on is not a one man job if the engine is in place. Connecting the hoses before it's dropped into place is a good idea! |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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I have a feeling John can afford the higher cost. John, If not, then Tim certainly has the solution. |
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7953 |
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Tim's got a great idea for installing the hoses. Put them on while the engine is on the hoist. How did the factory do it? They usually used the simplest way.
Our Cuda was about as simple as it gets as we had the floor open and the elbows were pointed in the right direction, but it was far more work than I anticipated to get everything to come together. It was like wrestling with an alligator. |
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3241 |
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That's a neat looking installation Bruce. You understand the wrestling match I'll be dealing with if you looked at the photo of my riser outlets. Yours are nearly straight runs. Gary has a neat looking installation with SS pipe for the tight radius lower bend, but his removable floor panel is notched and mine is not. I prefer a minimum of connections. The shop I would use to make the exhaust system does really nice work. I not sure why it's not a good solution, but that seems to be the consensus.
Pete, you overestimate my resources. I'm doing this on the gas money I saved driving my 35MPG Saturn Ion for the last 190,000 miles, and that is about $18,000 over a car that gets 18MPG. Roman Performance fabrication |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13513 |
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I don't think anyone said the elbows are a bad idea, other than more connections, but maybe just not needed.
Using the silicone Trident in place of the elbows, to some pipe, then the cheaper hose out the back is another solution (I may have missed this option). Regardless of the material getting whatever exhaust hoses/elbows connected to the snails that get's you down to the hull before dropping the engine in is a fabulous idea. Plenty of silicone grease in the process! Don't forget you have several of us available to help just schedule the next Chicago Beers in your garage. |
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3241 |
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I would love to host a Chicago Beers meeting here but it will be hard to do before February. It doesn't have to be a "hands on" meeting unless you want to get your hands on something from the grill. I do barbecue meetings for my car club here now and then.
Maybe I'm not being clear about what I would like to do with the exhaust system. My somewhat demented mind envisions a stainless steel one piece 3" pipe for the whole run from the risers to the tips, connected only by a hump hose at the riser and one at the SS exhaust tips for vibration resistance. I believe it would be nice to incorporate a piece of flat stock welded to the bottom of the pipe just behind the radius nearest the risers to allow a block of wood or other material to be slipped in and screwed to the flat stock and resting on the hull so the weight of the water filled pipe will not be hanging from the hump hose. This design would allow the block to be removed, dropping the pipe a couple of inches to slip the hump hose connection on and off of the riser. It would also give a slight rearward pitch to assist in draining the pipe. The connections at the riser and tip would be the only connections in the one piece system. I can't imagine how you could make a simpler system or one with less restriction. This system would simplify an engine swap in the event I decide to go to "plan 9" and resurrect the spare engine in the future. I may "go rogue" with this plan. |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13513 |
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Holy *************** that will be LOUD. I don't think you need any flat stock welded to the bottom. Metal strap any necessary support on and go. The downward angle is also totally unnecessary. Nothing wrong with your plan it'll work great but would take me a week to make all the needed measurements. Could you physically remove the pipes with the engine in place when you go to muffle it later? Ha. I'm fine with burgers and beers.
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3241 |
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Yea, well, uh, I won't be making the measurements or fabricating the system so there's that.The downward angle is only necessary to allow the pipe to drop several inches to easily get the hump hose on and off of the risers. Ant you have a good idea. A hose clamp could be used to attach a spacer to the pipe.
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21169 |
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John, that's certainly a viable approach, but I would expect the materials and labor to set you back ~3x the cost of hose. That's a lot of coin for something that you won't be able to see much of- and I do think the hose (or at a minimum, a hose and a set of 90* elbows) would get the job done. The latter is what we did on the BFN. I have 3-4' of hose on each side of my '90 too.
I also agree that adding all that metal to the exhaust track will be a bit raucous. You won't notice it much from the drivers seat though! I'm hardly one to complain about exhaust noise, just giving you fair warning. The HM's weren't quiet boats to begin with! |
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7953 |
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As far as tone and loudness goes, I don't think the SS tubes made much, if any difference on our boat.
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