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Okie Boarder
Gold Member Joined: August-31-2009 Location: OK Status: Offline Points: 779 |
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So, turns out the 2nd property and another one north of it have flood zone on the property. I'm not going to deal with that. We went to look at the first property in these pics again, and got a chance to talk to the closest neighbor. It sounds like it is a nice quiet area and it has about 11 houses on an 80 acre area right now. Several people have multiple lots totaling 5-10 acres, so it will probably only end up being about 13-14 houses back in there, on about a 1/2 mile dead end road. The property to the east is about 80 acres owned privately another property like that further east. Seems like the best one we've seen so far and we may end up pulling the trigger. The neighbor said the area is nice and quiet, land seems to perc well, neighbors are all real nice, electric is reasonably priced and there is plenty of wildlife around. The river back behind the area has a big swimming hole that a lot of people use and some four wheeler trails. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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I thought I'd comment when building a house on what decent insulation can do. I just got my utility (gas and electric combined) from my up north house and shop. I've mentioned it before but not in detail.
House: 750 sq. ft. 10 days at 40 degrees 5 days at 68 degrees 15 days at 0. (heat shut down) some electric for a 4'x 6' pump room at 45 degrees $116 Shop: 1500 sq. ft. 5 days at 68 degrees 25 days at 40 degrees Bathroom set at 68 all month $44 |
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74Wind
Grand Poobah Joined: August-02-2011 Location: Georgia Status: Offline Points: 2101 |
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Leave it to Pete to have a shop twice as big as his house.
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1974 Southwind 18
1975 Century Mark II |
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Okie Boarder
Gold Member Joined: August-31-2009 Location: OK Status: Offline Points: 779 |
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Nice! So what is the insulation set up you did?
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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2" iso under and the perimeter (very important) for the slab. Full fiberglass bats in 2x6 walls with 3/4" iso sheathing. No plywood for diagonal bracing - use the steel let in at the corners to meet code. 18" fiberglass blown in in the attic. 6" energy heals on the trusses. |
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Okie Boarder
Gold Member Joined: August-31-2009 Location: OK Status: Offline Points: 779 |
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Both the builders we're considering use the zip board system and do blown in bat n the walls and attic. We're thinking 2x6 exterior walls with the blown in bat.
Do you know your R values? |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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R28 walls (Bats not blown in), R66 attic (blown in fiberglass) and R20 under & perimeter of slab. What's the "zip board" system? Bat doesn't get blown in! |
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Okie Boarder
Gold Member Joined: August-31-2009 Location: OK Status: Offline Points: 779 |
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Maybe the terminology isn't quite right...that is what the contractors are calling it. This is what they are talking about...
Zip board: http://www.huberwood.com/zipsystem/home-zip-system |
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Okie Boarder
Gold Member Joined: August-31-2009 Location: OK Status: Offline Points: 779 |
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From talking to the contractors we may end up with around R50 in walls with the blown in and zip board, and R70ish in the attic. We don't get as cold here as you do, but we definitely get hot.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Looks like blown in cellulose to me? How can you end up with a R50 in a 2x6 wall? What are they doing in the attic to get R70? |
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peter1234
Grand Poobah Joined: February-03-2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2756 |
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ah blown in in the walls nothing like 70" of r 40 and 20+ " of r 2 2 yrs after install
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former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go
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Okie Boarder
Gold Member Joined: August-31-2009 Location: OK Status: Offline Points: 779 |
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I may be a little off on the numbers, but I know it was fairly high and in that range. One of my coworkers has had that type of insulation in his house for years and has a very efficient house. peter, can you elaborate? |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Andy, You're defiantly off on the numbers. Cellulose R is real close to fiberglass batts so you would get about a R20 in a 2x6 cavity.. Blown in is slightly more labor intensive but the raw material is cheaper since it's ground up newspaper. I'm not a big fan of it and as Peter mentioned, the common problem is failure of the binder. When that happens, you end up with a dense pile at the bottom of the cavity and nothing at the top. Google R values of insulation. You will find that iso foam is the highest. |
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Okie Boarder
Gold Member Joined: August-31-2009 Location: OK Status: Offline Points: 779 |
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So, checked with one of the contractors and he said it is cotton, blown in, with the netting. It is in multiple sections and it can settle a bit, but apparently not a lot, from what he says. Thoughts on this?
He did confirm that it is around R50 in the walls and higher in the ceiling. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Sorry Andy but I don't believe him on that R factor. "settle a bit" Well, I wouldn't like insulation to settle at all. At least he's truthful with that problem. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Andy,
I did some "research" on the net on cotton. It was disappointing to find the R value is lower than glass , installation is difficult and settling is a big problem with blown in. "Cotton Insulation vs. Fiberglass Insulation It's already been established that cotton is a superior product from both a health and an ecological perspective. While those are good selling points, the thing homeowners are most concerned with is R-value or how well it insulates your home. Insulation made from cotton has a general R-value of 3-4 per inch compared to fiberglass insulation batts with R-values ranging from 5 to 7 per inch. In short, cotton insulation isn't quite as efficient as fiberglass, an issue that is usually addressed by installing thicker bats or more layers. By increasing the thickness of the layer of insulation you install you can easily raise R-values to comparable levels. The one downside of that, however, is cost. Expect to pay 15-20% more for cotton than fiberglass insulation to achieve similar insulation levels." I'd sure recommend looking at tried and true fiberglass. That "salesman" that told you about the R50 must be smoking something! |
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Okie Boarder
Gold Member Joined: August-31-2009 Location: OK Status: Offline Points: 779 |
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I found some similar information and had a lengthy conversation with one of the contractors (who happens to also be an acquaintance from church). I was off on my numbers and he said a 2x6 wall with the cotton insulation blown in and packed is R30. He has his house done that way and I also have a coworker that did the blown and packed many years ago. Both of them rave at the energy efficiency of their homes and their low utility bills.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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4 (the high end of cotton) x 5.5 is 22. Still not a R30! I rave too with fiberglass batts and the utility bills have proven it to me. What about the settling he admits to? Any blown in in the wall cavity relies on a binder. If the binder sees any moisture, it fails. |
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Okie Boarder
Gold Member Joined: August-31-2009 Location: OK Status: Offline Points: 779 |
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He says the settling is usually minimal (1/2" or less). One of the advantages I understand to the blown in is it being more air tight (filling in air space around the wiring and plumbing in walls) versus the batt.
My take on this whole thing is that ensuring the most insulation material possible is in the walls for the amount of money you want to spend is the right decision. Batt or blown in seem to perform well and it seems there are lots of good "reviews" on blown in. Foam seems to be the best, but the cost difference might not be worth it. That's the conclusions I'm coming to reading through things. Am I way off base here? |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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Being sealed and air tite usually does yield some benefit as a system over bats, but installation care makes a big difference with either system. The system you showed a picture of is blow in blanket which is a fiberglass blown in product, a very nice system but still typically an r26 max. Chasing anything better than that for the walls that far south would be pretty aggressive by my thinking.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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This is especially true when batts aren't installed properly. I've seen some pretty sloppy jobs. Batts can't just be stuffed in the cavity. They must be cut so they go around both the front and back of electrics and plumbing. The facing should be stapled top , bottom and sides to the framing members. An air infiltration barrier such as Tyvek should be part of the wall construction. "more air tight" with blown in is true but by how much? You can still blow through it. The only true air tight system is spray foam. |
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SWANY
Senior Member Joined: August-12-2014 Location: batavia Status: Offline Points: 384 |
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I would focus more thought on your windows (your greatest heat and cooling loss) than the R value. R-21 to best of my knowledge is the greatest that you can buy in a bat form 2x6 framing
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Okie Boarder
Gold Member Joined: August-31-2009 Location: OK Status: Offline Points: 779 |
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I agree that air is an issue and the insulation won't stop that (except the foam). That zip board system along with window frame air infiltration barriers should cover that piece.
SWANY, agreed that windows are also a big consideration. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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News report on tankless water heaters I got a kick from them calling them "thankless water heaters"
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Okie Boarder
Gold Member Joined: August-31-2009 Location: OK Status: Offline Points: 779 |
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Hmmm, interesting.
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peter1234
Grand Poobah Joined: February-03-2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2756 |
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pretty tough to beat a boilermate system it gives you 40 gal or more hot water storage depending on the tank size , i Know the HTP stainless 40 loses 1 degree per hr at 65 deg ambient temp it is a proven system it has worked well for many yrs before the tankless system became so in vogue . I bet the boilermate v.s your avg tankless system doesnt matter more than 25$ per yr in your avg home
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former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go
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62 wood
Grand Poobah Joined: February-19-2005 Location: NW IL Status: Offline Points: 4527 |
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We have had a tankless water heater for 7 or 8 years and are currently on our second unit.
The heat exchanger on the first one actually froze one day when we were at work. The high that day was around 10 below. That coupled with a wind blowing into the exhaust pipe= the problem. At that time, we actually looked at going back to a tanked power vent, but decided to go back to another tankless. (This one has a small electric heater on the exchanger that will come on if water temp gets around 35 degrees). Even tho the installed cost was about 1/3 higher than tanked, We never run out of hot water. We have a larger whirlpool tub that alone takes around 50 gallons of water. You can fill it, use the shower, run washing machine, etc. We always have hot water. For what its worth , Energy Star says average savings around $80/year/$1700 over life of heater. Also nice to have the extra floor space where old heater was. They may not be for everyone, but have worked great for us. |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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62 wood
Grand Poobah Joined: February-19-2005 Location: NW IL Status: Offline Points: 4527 |
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Yeppp tub is right next to the outhouse.
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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I wanted to use this one but was kindly reminded about drinkin and drivin' and no one would volunteer to be designated driver
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