95 SN Running Great, now won't start |
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SteveHookEm
Senior Member Joined: July-17-2015 Location: Houston Status: Offline Points: 157 |
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Posted: October-04-2015 at 2:07pm |
Went out all day Friday. The boat is running like a Swiss watch! Went back out Saturday and she fired up with a quick turn of the key, immediately. Very strong start, no lagging at all. Backed off the trailer, ran down the lake with great power, everything working perfectly! Cool temps, perfect water!
So after about 30 minutes of running, we stop to float and swim. When we're ready to leave I go to start and nothing. Just a single click. Not even acting like it was trying to turn over. Gauges all come up, battery shows 12V (or maybe a little higher), stereo works great, but no starting. The battery is one month old, not a deep cycle. And as I said, the first start of the day was effortless, running before the key popped back to the on position. Fired up with a roar! Does the GT40 have a solenoid? It feels just like when I had a bad solenoid in a car. Just a single click and nothing else. I really hate getting towed for an hour back to the ramp! But thank goodness for lake patrol! |
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Donald80SN
Grand Poobah Joined: January-12-2009 Location: Denver, NC Status: Offline Points: 3896 |
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Yes, but it is not on the starter. It is mounted on an electrical panel on the back of the engine. Usually under a plastic box. Normally, there is a red button on the box. Get a high quality PCM one and not an off brand. You will have the problem again with an off brand like Sierra. Go to Discount Inboard Marine AKA Ski Dim.com or Zack at N3 ( Site Sponsor) in Indy or Nautique Parts.com AKA White Lake Marine ( NC) to get a PCM unit. Also, check all of your batter cable connections for corrosion. I upgraded up old cables on my1980 to larger marine from a web-site titled www.genuinedealz.com
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1980 Ski Nautique SOLD Back to Cypress Gardens
2002 Sport Nautique, GT-40, FCT2, Cover Sports, Tower Bimini, Inc., Wet Sounds Audio System, Star Gazer Wake Edition S. 1968 Ski Nautique, Project. |
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SteveHookEm
Senior Member Joined: July-17-2015 Location: Houston Status: Offline Points: 157 |
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Thanks! The battery cables are brand new, two weeks old. The old ones were so corroded that they would literally spin on the battery terminals even clamped all the way down.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Since you do hear a click, it sounds like you are getting power to the starter relay (solenoid) if so, that rules out the NSS (neutral safety switch) but check it anyway. Get the VOM out and make sure you are getting 12 volts to the relay coil. Ohm the start relay contacts to make sure it is the relay before getting a new one and throwing parts at the problem. When it's coil is energized, you should get a near zero reading. I agree with Don and my money is on battery cables and the connections. When you connected the battery cables, did you use a terminal cleaner (wire brush type)? If you have repair type terminal ends (the ones where the cable is clamped to the terminal with 2 bolts and a strap), you defiantly need new cables. Yes on the larger gauge and yes on marine grade.
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SteveHookEm
Senior Member Joined: July-17-2015 Location: Houston Status: Offline Points: 157 |
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I wish there was someone here on the board in the Houston area that was a PCM mechanic! I really want to learn some of this to do myself but unfortunately, I am not a mechanic and stand there and stare at the motor like an idiot! haha I have to rely on shops to diagnose.
From "over the years" experience, I would say that this is not a cable issue. I have new 10 gauge cables to the ignition and new, marine grade cable ends that have been wire brushed and tighten down to the brand new battery terminals. Like I mentioned, the boat gets power to the gauges and stereo and until the last time, started up with authority. No dragging and multiple clicks like I've heard from starters that just aren't getting quite enough battery to turn it over. This time, it's one small click only. How can I find the neutral safety switch. I'm guessing if I have to ask that, it's above my level to repair. :) Can a novice replace the starter relay? How about the starter itself? I was happy with myself that I replaced the idle air control valve. But that is as difficult as I have gotten! Two bolts, a gasket and a plug. |
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Smithfamily
Platinum Member Joined: December-26-2007 Location: Orlando, Fl Status: Offline Points: 1602 |
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As long as you have a beer in your hand as you stare, you will appear professional!! I am no mechanic, but with the help here you can do it, AND learn valuable lessons that may help you out of a jam on the water. There are plenty of postings pertaining to this. I myself went through it about 6 years ago. Replaced the neutral safety and the breaker. You can also pull up wiring diagrams for your GT40, in reference section. Good luck, take your time, and pictures, and don't be afraid to ask. |
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Js
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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I have a little brash brush, that looks almost like a toothbrush. If you can get yourself one of these, you can remove the connections, (one at a time so you don't lose track) around your starter etc. There is also a heavy ground strap that goes to the engine block. Remove them, brush off all the dirt and corrosion, and put them back.
The brush I'm talking about looks like the one in this set. This set is a little spendy for what it is, but I guess it gives you a full range of options: http://www.mactools.com/en-us/Cutting-and-Scraping/Brush-Sets/BA5K/5-PC-Electrifix-Brush-Kit Mac and snap one (and others I'm sure for cheaper) have wire wheel brushes that will go on a drill etc, that's another way to go about the cleaning. |
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SteveHookEm
Senior Member Joined: July-17-2015 Location: Houston Status: Offline Points: 157 |
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I ordered a starter relay from NP. I'll give that a try. If that isn't the issue, then I'll have to run up to the Nautique dealer and let them find it. I'd like to check the Neutral Safety Switch but I have no idea where it is!
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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The neutral safety switch is on the transmission. It should basically be the only thing with any sort of electrical connections going to the actual transmission.
On your GT-40 motor, there will be tons of electrical things going to the engine, but just that one set of wires going to the transmission. Now, all a neutral safety switch does, is open or close, depending on whether or not the transmission is in gear. If the tranny is in neutral, it is safe to start, so the switch should be "closed" or "completed" allowing current to pass through. As far as testing it, there a couple ways to skin that cat: *The hack way: use a jumper test lead to connect the two terminals of the NSS thereby connecting them together and closing the switch. The downside of this is if the tranny actually is hung up in gear, the engine will start and you'll go barreling towards the nearest obstruction. *The multimeter way1 (continuity): Within the multimeter way, your best bet is if you have one with an audible continuity alarm. If the switch is working (closed in neutral), closed is continuous, therefore the continuity tone should sound when you probe both ends of the neutral safety switch. The only real downside of this is you should unplug both ends of the NSS (neutral safety switch), so other boat wiring stuff is not interfering. The multimeter way2 (voltage): You set your voltmeter (multimeter) to 12volts dc. You take your ground side, and semi permanently connect it/touch it to a known good ground. This can be the battery negative, the engine block, etc. You'll need a helper to hold your ground side and turn the key. In this method, you'll use the positive probe to test both sides of the NSS. With the helper turning they key to start, you'll use your positive probe to probe both sides of the NSS. You should get voltage on both sides. If you get voltage one one side, and not the other (with the key in the start position), well then you've found your problem. The test light way (similar to the multimeter voltage way): I actually prefer to use a test light, because the ground wire has a beefy alligator clip if it's a good one. This saves you from having to have a helper hold your ground side for you. In this case, you have your alligator clipped ground wire going to battery negative, or another good ground. Again, you have your helper turn the key to start, while you probe both sides of the NSS. The light should light on at least one side, confirming they key is sending voltage to the NSS. -If it lights on one side and not the other, again, your NSS is faulty -If it lights on neither side, the problem is upstream, likely they key -If it lights on both sides, the NSS is good, move downstream to the solenoid. Here's a link to a high quality test light: http://www.mactools.com/en-us/Diagnostics-and-Testing/Circuit-Fuse-Testers/9cc1c443-bc4a-4f1b-ab24-a4df0151e88f/Circuit-Testers/ET111X/6-12V-Circuit-Tester |
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desertskier
Platinum Member Joined: December-19-2006 Location: Az Status: Offline Points: 1115 |
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It's on the transmission. It will have two wires connected to it.
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SteveHookEm
Senior Member Joined: July-17-2015 Location: Houston Status: Offline Points: 157 |
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Went to the dealer. Turned the key and click. Turn again, click. Hit the starter with a wrench and it fired up. It's the original starter on the boat. It's bad.
We've had water pouring on it from what I thought was around the manifold bolts. The dealer told me that if water has been running onto the starter, he wouldn't bother putting on a new one since that will ruin the starter in about a month. Is that true? We were going to address the leaky manifold issue at the end of the season. The dealer basically told me he didn't want the boat. He said they had 30 ahead of me, 5 new boat preps and he wouldn't even look at it for 3-4 weeks. And if it turned out that something needed to be done other than just a gasket and the starter, he didn't want to touch it. So I left there--and I will never be back---and took the boat to a repair center that has received great reviews and took on many of the customers in town that didn't want to go to Conroe after the local Nautique dealer closed. I told him what the dealer said and he shook his head and said, "they only care about the new boats. We don't sell new boats. We just fix everything else." I like that attitude! Two mechanics got in and started looking at the area where it was obvious water has been leaking for some time. I'm not sure if the previous owner knew what was going on but the first indication is that I may have two cracked heads from a poor winterizing (non existent) some time ago. The boat is running great! I can't believe that I would have cracked heads. He said not the heads that have to do with compression. I don't even know what that means. But OK. So he's tearing it down to check. Still hopeful that this is a gasket issue but starting to think I bought a lemon. |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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Its not unusual for the early gt40 heads to crack in the water jacket. this would create and exterior leak without causing a problem with how it runs. Its not a death sentence but it is going to get very expensive if you having someone else fix it for you. I would retrieve it soon and start taking it apart yourself and save that labor money to use on parts. As for the starter, you could probably take that one apart and clean it out and get more service out of it. A new one should take a little bit of water dripping on it without much issue but I would also tend not to install a new one while you still have leak issues right above it if you can avoid it.
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desertskier
Platinum Member Joined: December-19-2006 Location: Az Status: Offline Points: 1115 |
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His comment doesn't make much sense. Maybe he is referring to the exhaust manifolds or risers. I have never heard of either of those parts referred to as heads though.
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SteveHookEm
Senior Member Joined: July-17-2015 Location: Houston Status: Offline Points: 157 |
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The manifolds look fine and he said the "elbows" are fine. That's where he said they usually see leaks. But it was tight.
This was low on the engine, below the spark plugs. It looks like water has been running down the sides, low, for some time. You can see streaks of rust. The thought that it was from the bolts that hold on the manifold isn't correct---he said---since the water line for the leaks is below that point. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Steve, I agree with Joe on the starter. Considering all it took was a tap to get it going indicates brushes and commutator. Take it apart as mentioned and clean up the commutator. It's the segmented copper section at the end of the armature (the center part that turns). Without getting real involved which typically is making a cut on the lathe to reface it, just take a Scotchpad to it. Then replace the brushes. |
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Smithfamily
Platinum Member Joined: December-26-2007 Location: Orlando, Fl Status: Offline Points: 1602 |
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Wow Steve, I hope you do not need new heads! Bummer. Keep the faith, and keep the mechanic honest by checking here. Good luck!
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Js
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JPASS
Grand Poobah Joined: June-17-2013 Location: Orlando Status: Offline Points: 2283 |
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post a pic of the leaky spot so we can see what the mechanic was referring to.
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'92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique
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SteveHookEm
Senior Member Joined: July-17-2015 Location: Houston Status: Offline Points: 157 |
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We'll know soon. Seems likely. They think the boat wasn't winterized correctly at some point before I bought it, maybe years ago, and the jackets are cracked. They're tearing into it soon. A few boats ahead of me. |
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SteveHookEm
Senior Member Joined: July-17-2015 Location: Houston Status: Offline Points: 157 |
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I forgot to snap one before I left the shop. I just called them and the service guy will take a photo and email it to me. They're really good over there. I think I have found a shop I can trust. I'll reconfirm that AFTER the bill comes in! haha I'll post the photo as soon as it arrives. |
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SteveHookEm
Senior Member Joined: July-17-2015 Location: Houston Status: Offline Points: 157 |
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OK, they sent me the pic. Here you go. Looks worse here than when I see it in person. Obviously this issue was happening long before I bought the boat. I wish I had noticed it then! But the boat ran so well. We even paid a mechanic $200 to do a pre-purchase check and he gave us the green light (some little issues but nothing major mentioned like this).
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Steve,
Considering the water staining is above the head gasket area, it sure looks like the head does have a crack. Joe is correct that if it needs heads, the labor is going to cost you some $$$. The heads themselves aren't that bad since they are readily available remanufactured. |
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SteveHookEm
Senior Member Joined: July-17-2015 Location: Houston Status: Offline Points: 157 |
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Do you have a link to the remanufactured heads? I'd like to compare that to what the shop tells me. They may only be looking for new heads. If you think remanufactured is good, I'll tell them to look for that. I respect your knowledge!
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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SteveHookEm
Senior Member Joined: July-17-2015 Location: Houston Status: Offline Points: 157 |
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The Clearwater heads show a price of $155. Tri-State and others are in the $500-600 range. Why the difference? I'm obviously not comparing apples to apples there.
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Not sure what you looked at,last time I checked TriState did not have a listing anymore for the gt40p's they used to offer.The difference between TriState and Clearwater was basically the TriStates were blue printed heads,5 angle cut seats,larger intake and exhaust valves,new upgraded springs. Clearwater production builds stock heads. My TriStates at the time happened to be new castings which really dosen't matter.They also would not put brass core plugs in but when it's time I'll do them myself. Make sure if you buy heads from anyone tell them the head bolt holes need to be drilled for a 351's.Any of these companies heads will work for you and will be much better than the gt40s you replace.
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SteveHookEm
Senior Member Joined: July-17-2015 Location: Houston Status: Offline Points: 157 |
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OK, new heads it is. :( They get them from the marine division of Marshall Engines called "First Mate". The shop said they will not use regular automotive heads. He said they aren't as durable and won't hold up like those made for marine use. I have no idea what the difference is but I do trust them. And it appears the prices are no more expensive than anywhere else.
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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There is no such thing as marine heads. The castings are the same no matter where you purchase them from, the core plugs should be brass to be used in a marine environment but the brass plugs are cheap and anyone would put them in for you if asked. The valve material on marine heads might be better as well but I doubt it on anything late model ford. The thing you need to be sure of is that the ones being quoted to you use either gt40, or gt40p castings otherwise you will be losing a lot of performance. I would be surprised if you were quoted gt40p marine heads because they were never used in any marine application. I would be surprised if you were quoted marine gt40 heads for less than 1200 for the pair, simply because I have never seen them cheaper. I would refer to my earlier post... but if you really want to pay them to do this for you then definitely ask very specific questions about the heads being used.
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Oh yea I'd believe someone trying to sell me something over numerous others who actually have experience and have no skin in the game bet they cannot tell you what the difference actually is---
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SteveHookEm
Senior Member Joined: July-17-2015 Location: Houston Status: Offline Points: 157 |
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Thanks Joe. Here's the First Mate page. Can you tell if these are GT40 heads? He told me he won't know which ones to get until they pull mine and get a number off of it. If he then tells Marshall that number, will he get GT40 heads?
http://cart.marshallengines.com/search/Index.php?SearchBy=Marine |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Steve,
Did you carefully read Gary's comment? Did you even bother to use the link I provided regarding heads that members here have used?
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