Not another Mustang restoration thread. |
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juniorwoody
Gold Member Joined: August-09-2011 Location: Oak Hill, Fl Status: Offline Points: 937 |
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Would not milled glass be a better filler Pete?
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The value of money spent on new adventure far exceeds the value of money saved for the future
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Morfoot
Grand Poobah Joined: February-06-2004 Location: South Lanier Status: Offline Points: 5320 |
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FYI info straight out of the DAL composite Class Training Manual.............
Milled Fibers - Used to thicken and reinforce resin and typically used to repair small holes in solid laminates (ie wood) Microballoons - Very Small hollow spheres. used to displace resin and lighten the potting compound. Primary use is a potting compound and dent filler.... CAB-O-SIL - Added to resin as a thixotropic agent to prevent sagging. ( turns runny watery type resin into a cold molasses consistancy or creamy peanut butter if you add enough) Where cloth is concerned you have 2 basic types of weaves.....SATIN or PLAIN SATIN - asymmetrical weave pattern that will have a different number of yarns per square inch. Satin weave fabrics will not have equal strength in all directions but its attributes are its more drapable than plain weaves and used in areas of complex curves. PLAIN - Equal number of yarns per square inch and equally strong in all directions. The drawback is that it doesn't conform to complex curves to well. (ie corners and tight radiuses) Hope that helps y'all who are reading! |
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"Morfoot; He can ski. He can wakeboard.He can cook chicken.He can create his own self-named beverage, & can also apparently fly. A man of many talents."72 Mustang "Kermit",88 SN Miss Scarlett, 99 SN "Sherman"
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Morfoot
Grand Poobah Joined: February-06-2004 Location: South Lanier Status: Offline Points: 5320 |
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John, I would route out the rot and remove as much of the damaged wood as possible then follow up with CPES as the others suggested. Once it hardens then fill the hole with a resin/ milled fibers mixture as the fibers will add more strength to the repair then resin mixed with Cab-o-Sil. The latter is just a thickened epoxy and you'll want the extra strength in the repair that milled fibers offer.
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"Morfoot; He can ski. He can wakeboard.He can cook chicken.He can create his own self-named beverage, & can also apparently fly. A man of many talents."72 Mustang "Kermit",88 SN Miss Scarlett, 99 SN "Sherman"
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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I feel the Cab-o-sil since it's softer than the milled fibers so I feel it will handle the lag bolts better. Unless you drill plenty of clearance for the threaded section and the shank of the lags, there's a chance of cracking the fill using milled fiber.
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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Pre drill the holes and use the milled fiber it's the milled fiber that is going to keep it from cracking. I agree with all else above - dry thoroughly - remove spongy - cpes - fill - glass - reassemble - enjoy |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21169 |
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Agreed on milled fiber of you fill it back in. Scalloping under the mounts and putting a cradle (or 2 independent pieces of angle) and then through bolting the mounts is another consideration.
You're also very close (in terms of cost and effort) to a full stringer replacement... So if you come across more questionable spots, keep that in mind. There are several viable repair options from what I see. |
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13513 |
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Aluminum L wrapping on the outside of the stringer is a great idea. You may end up too narrow trying to go inside like a factory cradle.
Possibly no scalloping needed if the mounts have 1/4" up to go OR just flip them upside down and shim. |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21169 |
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I meant scallop for the nuts on the underside of each mount, but you're right- may or may not need to trim he stringer height by the thickness of the angle so that it ends up flush.
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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He could go inside just like the factory does and could incorporate the pylon mount at the same time since his is gone. A HM sits on top of the stringers not on the inside like a PCM
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21169 |
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A full cradle is certainly an option but now you're talking welding.
I would recommend a piece of angle on each side, not connected. Put the vertical on the outside of the mains. That way, access the underside from the bilge side rather than complicating the floor design (like seen on 80-88 SN's). |
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13513 |
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I'm with Tim on the independent angles. NOT NEEDED, but a step above filling that tranny hole with epoxy.
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3241 |
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That elongated hole is where the Marine tex was, I have removed all the Marine tex with a drill, screwdriver and long nose pliers. The hole is about 2-1/2" deep and the wood still holds bolts as is. The wood around the hole is in good condition. It seems to me that it may be a bit drastic to do a complete stringer job for this area. I have a theory that this area was damaged due to a cracked and leaking manifold or exhaust hose that dripped on the engine mount over years. The discharge of the manifold is right above the motor mount bolts and the manifolds had been replaced with Oscos when I bought it due to the H/Ms cracking and leaking many years ago. You can see the condition of the other mounting positions and there is no damage. Tim was nice enough to explain some of the basics of fiberglass repair to me so I am worse than a complete clueless amateur, I am an amateur armed with just a little knowledge. I plan on using epoxy thickened with milled fiber to fill the hole. I am reluctant to drill holes in the stringers in any area but around the bolts. For the most part they are very solid. I feel that repairing this hole is not that much more serious than repairing a hole that has been stripped by removal and over tightening of the bolts from repeated alignment and engine removal, and dealers/repair shops must run into that all the time. but what do I know? Thanks for the help and suggestions everyone. I am going to order the supplies today or tomorrow and I am thinking of buying 3 gallons of vinyl ester epoxy. I think that will be enough but if not they will be happy to sell me more. I think the 5 gallon will be too much and would be hard to handle if it comes in a pail or large can.
One more thing, I think I understand the advantage of a double tapered shaft. I do not want to pull the engine in the event of damage to the strut / shaft / seal. The hub is VERY hard to remove and would require heat. I may go that route. Also I think I need remove the genitalia and lower the boat down onto some foam pads to do the fiberglass work. I am having a great deal of trouble climbing into the boat repeatedly from a ladder. Joints are never as good as new after they have been repaired and three out of four of my limbs have had had surgical repair, one as many as three times. Not complaining, just trying to plan accordingly. |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13513 |
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Probably comes in 1 gallon quantities just like the epoxy. Not a bad idea to start small and get more if you feel you will need it instead of kicking around 2 gallons that never get used.
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3241 |
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I have 3 gallons of U.S. Composits 4lb foam I have been kicking around. I hate to throw it out but I'm tired of seeing it. Anyone need it? |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13513 |
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sure!
thought I posted this before, but we have PLENTY of cabosil leftover from kytom2 if you do end up needing any |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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John,
When you order the resin, get the metering pumps. It makes each batch easy to make up. |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21169 |
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Wait, vinylester? I'd skip that.
In terms of required resin, you'll use as much as any full stringer job, not sure his you'd get away with less than 10gal. |
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3241 |
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Hmmm, I thought I had this figured out. no Vinyl ester? I was looking at the U.S. Composites 700 vinyl ester resin. http://www.uscomposites.com/polyesters.html |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21169 |
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Remind us of your plan again, I've forgotten it!
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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John,
I missed the vinyl ester too. Go with the epoxy. |
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3241 |
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Ha, It's hard to keep score when my ADD keeps flaring up constantly. The plan as stands: Cut off dis-bonded fiberglass, treat stringers with CPES, fill hole with U.S. Composites 700 vinyl ester and milled fiberglass, fair out stringer to hull with fillet joint using thickened vinyl ester and cab-o-sil, use U.S. Composites "Industry Style 7725" cloth to glass in the stringers. (It will undoubtedly increase the strength of the structure to have the cloth bonded to the wood), build a little extra thickness on the stringers for strength, reassemble with CPES'd marine plywood floor. add freshened up power package, wire, install accessories, enjoy. nothing to it! I think making a partial cradle is over the top. The bolts hold tight as is and with the small repair to the damaged holes it will probably be stronger than new with the longer SS bolts that were in it. |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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John,
You forgot the first step will be to grind off the bilge resin almost down to glass. |
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3241 |
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Thanks for reminding me Pete. I unintentionally left that out, probably because it is what I dread most. While you're up, what is the best solvent to use to clean the oily residue up before grinding? I don't want to use anything water based since, although the boat wasn't wet, the stringers have been drying for three or so years in my garage. I don't want to use anything that would adversely affect the resin bond either. Mineral spirits? lacquer thinner? acetone? what do you think? |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13513 |
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Will vinylester play well with the poly already in there and the CPES treatments?
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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I am not usually an epoxy snob, but in this case I would use epoxy instead of the vinyl, because you are not removing the old stuff your best bet is to go at it with the epoxy which has better adhesion to the less than optimal surfaces and higher strength in case something it is attached to isn't as special as it should be. I cant imagine the vinyl is terribly cheaper for this job.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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John,
Regarding a solvent, I suggest Toluene or Xylene. Both will cut the oil/grease better than spirits and they don't evaporate quick like Acetone does. Get as much up before you grind so it doesn't re contaminate the ground areas and then again before you start glassing. |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21169 |
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Yeah just use epoxy for everything, right up until you re-gel the bilge (use vinyl first). Vinyl and poly are MUCH less fun to work with and don't take thickeners as well, in my experience.
I use acetone for all glass prep. Strong and effective, and flashes off quickly- no chance for contaminating the next layer. |
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3241 |
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Got it, real epoxy. Silly me!
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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C-Bass
Platinum Member Joined: November-18-2008 Location: Columbus, IN Status: Offline Points: 1248 |
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+1000 on this. |
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3241 |
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Would anyone care to make a guess on how much CPES I will need for the stringers and floor of my Mustang? I have only used it once and that was on new marine plywood for my 15' Mark Twain and it used about a quart. It comes in 1 quart, 2 quart, or 2 gallon sizes. I realy dont want to buy more than I need, but I can always buy more. I am leaning toward 1 gallon. My stringers are REALLY dry, the boat hasn't been in the water since before 2003 and the foam was dry. I have no experience with wood like this.
Also, is anyone aware of a source for aluminum or stainless engine alignment wedges to replace the wood ones the boat came with? Seem like it would simplify the job, especially if they had some type of jacking bolts. |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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