62 Classic needs a new Velvet Drive |
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RainDog
Platinum Member Joined: February-21-2007 Location: Mke/Grn Lake WI Status: Offline Points: 1387 |
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Posted: April-17-2016 at 8:35pm |
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My transmission saga looks like it will be getting a little longer, so I opened a new thread.
Background: Due to slipping under load, dirty neutral, oil leakage and bad oders, I knew my AS1-71C transmission needed to be rebuilt. After speaking to Jim (the owner) at length, I took it to Federal Marine Transmission in Countryside IL. Upon arrival, I was impressed. He has a small shop but it was neat and orderly with racks and racks of gear sets, cases, service parts, repurposed parts, etc. Jim also has a long history with marine transmissions and specializes in their repair. He warned me that the orange seals tended to ruin input and output shafts and if that is the case, parts were in short supply. I also learned that all 71C transmissions are not equal. Mine was a very early one and likely original to the boat. It has a shorter input shaft and this part is no longer available. Turns out luck was not in my favor because my input shaft was seriously ground away where the seal runs on the shaft. We took the trans down further. The pump was very worn with scoring on all mating surfaces. We pulled all the remaining parts that would come out of the front of the transmission. Everything had been well used and needed replacing. Jim estimates the trans was never rebuilt based on the seals, thin paper gaskets and some internal parts that would have been changed to different materials during a later rebuild. He estimates the trans had about 3000 hours of use. So, my transmission is beyond reasonable repair. I have three options - New, used rebuilt or used. New, we are looking at $2000+ with shipping. Both used rebuilt and used makes me very nervous unless I can verify the history. I really don't want to do this again in 5 years. I throw this open to suggestions from the group. I really didn't expect a $2K repair on the old Classic this year. |
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RainDog
Platinum Member Joined: February-21-2007 Location: Mke/Grn Lake WI Status: Offline Points: 1387 |
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Here is the input shaft. You can see the damage the seal did to it.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Time for a Speedi sleeve!
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RainDog
Platinum Member Joined: February-21-2007 Location: Mke/Grn Lake WI Status: Offline Points: 1387 |
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But, the fun continues. My engine is a Grey Marine Fireball 225. It is based on the AMC/Ambassador/Rambler 327 block. It is a flywheel aft, reverse rotation engine. I need a replacement damper plate.
The hole pattern is 6 holes, 11.625" across. The triangular damper will work well with its tips cut off but.... The problem is I have a splined hub that is 1.2" deep. With the deep splined hub, the splined input shaft sits in it about 0.75". Using the readily available replacement would not engage the shaft properly. Jim at Federal is looking into a custom unit. Does anyone else have any ideas? |
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RainDog
Platinum Member Joined: February-21-2007 Location: Mke/Grn Lake WI Status: Offline Points: 1387 |
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Backside of the damper plate.
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21169 |
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A little better than $2k new at SkiDIM (subtract 10%) if you go new. Shipping should be $100ish.
http://www.skidim.com/mobile/VELVET-DRIVE-11-RATIO-71C-NEW/productinfo/RA157001/ Talk to Joe, he had a 71c or 2 that he had rebuilt at one point. I would not worry too much about a good used or rebuilt tranny. Most larger trans shops I've worked with will require a core but won't fault you if yours isn't worth saving. Tough spot now that you know your internals are in poor shape but perhaps there are still some useable parts where it wouldn't be a total loss for the shop. I'm sure they win some and lose some on the core exchange. |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Current price on their web site is 1744.00,current catalog says 2937.00,might be worth a call. I'm now thinking the new one I saw on the Shamrock site with 50 hours on it for 400 was a steal---
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fanofccfan
Platinum Member Joined: December-13-2009 Location: North Bend NE Status: Offline Points: 1774 |
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I bought a new one in the early 90's and it was $1750 plus shipping. Inflation considered I was expecting your quote to be more. With that being said, it is still bunches of money to spend. I remember my dad telling me at that time to just make it a true direct drive......eliminate the trans all together and extend the prop shaft to the flywheel........that is one time in my life I am glad I did not listen to his advice. To my knowledge that 81 ski that it went in is still cruising the water..
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Steve,
Check this drive plate (damper) out I think you could use your old adapter that bolts to the flywheel and then bolt the new drive plate to it. |
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RainDog
Platinum Member Joined: February-21-2007 Location: Mke/Grn Lake WI Status: Offline Points: 1387 |
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Pete, thank for the idea. The damper you showed has a mounting bolt diameter of 6.58". The recess in my flywheel is right around 6" so it wouldn't fit even if I could get it accurately centered and mounted to the backing plate.
Besides, while the specs didn't specifically state it, I don't think the splined hub is deep enough. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Steve,
I have one more thought. The springs in a damper are off the shelf "die" springs. You may consider just replacing them. The color denotes the spring rate. See the red springs at McMaster |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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It can't have a mounting bolt diameter of 6.58 because the OD stated is 6.18. Also, my idea is to just use the center section with the springs and spline hub bolted to your old adapter plate. You would discard the adapter plate that comes with it. I'd call Ebasic and get some more info. Maybe they have a full drawing they could send? |
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RainDog
Platinum Member Joined: February-21-2007 Location: Mke/Grn Lake WI Status: Offline Points: 1387 |
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This is weird, Pete. You are right, ebasicpower states 6.18" dia. The Barr web site says differently:
It says it is a BW part that is a replacement for the Barr part. I couldn't find info on the BW part yet. |
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RainDog
Platinum Member Joined: February-21-2007 Location: Mke/Grn Lake WI Status: Offline Points: 1387 |
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This is an interesting thought. How would I remove the mounting rivets and how would I reassemble the damper? Better stated, what kind of shop would be able to disassemble and reassemble it using new permanent rivets? |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Steve,
The easy part is drilling out the rivets. A good metal fabricator or metal stamper should have the capacity to stake new rivets in the assembly. |
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RainDog
Platinum Member Joined: February-21-2007 Location: Mke/Grn Lake WI Status: Offline Points: 1387 |
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I'm thinking I have nothing to lose if I try this. Would a hydraulic press do the trick to fit in the new rivets? If so, Pete, can you point me to a source where I can find new rivets? |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Steve,
A hydraulic press will work but the top and bottom staking tooling may be a problem. Notice the dimple in the middle? That's there to get some expansion to the ID's of the plates. Let's go back to the replacing of the springs only. I can't fully see how they are retained. Does it look like the plates would need to be taken apart for removal? Or,could the R&R of the springs be done simply by compressing them? |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Be careful with ebasicpower Steve. I suspect they do a lot of drop shipping. If they could provide you with a spec drawing that would be great. I ordered PCM Ford cooling parts from them knowing they were discontinued even though they showed them available. Took a month to get my account credited after they found out they were NLA
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RainDog
Platinum Member Joined: February-21-2007 Location: Mke/Grn Lake WI Status: Offline Points: 1387 |
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The width of the slot in the backing plate and the top plate is smaller than the width of the spring. This keeps the springs from falling out. I can't see a way to compress the width of the spring to remove it through the top or bottom slots. As far as I can see, disassembly is the only option.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Got it! Yup, ether way, it's got to come apart.
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RainDog
Platinum Member Joined: February-21-2007 Location: Mke/Grn Lake WI Status: Offline Points: 1387 |
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So Pete, do you have any sources for the rivets? Are they a special type with a special name to them?
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Duane in Indy
Platinum Member Joined: October-26-2015 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1578 |
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I get mine from McMaster Carr edit: I don't see why you could not just use a punch and a hammer. You only have 4 to do. Perhaps a concave punch. |
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Keep it as original as YOU want it
1978 Mustang (modified) |
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RainDog
Platinum Member Joined: February-21-2007 Location: Mke/Grn Lake WI Status: Offline Points: 1387 |
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Duane, if you have a moment, could you please link to the correct page at McMaster Carr for the rivets you've used (or just a part number would be fine).
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Duane, Notice the "cheese head" that's formed on the rivet. I feel they do not what any movement between the plates so they really beefed up the head. They really wacked those rivets!! |
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Duane in Indy
Platinum Member Joined: October-26-2015 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1578 |
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Looks like a "Solid Rivet" is what you need. Just figure out the diameter, length, and head shape you need. |
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Keep it as original as YOU want it
1978 Mustang (modified) |
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Duane in Indy
Platinum Member Joined: October-26-2015 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1578 |
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Get a bigger hammer |
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Keep it as original as YOU want it
1978 Mustang (modified) |
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93/70 ccpb
Senior Member Joined: March-05-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 448 |
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hello raindog i have a complete engine and trans from a 62 or 63 correct craft classic all part are there but engine is stuck..it has been in dry storege for 5 yrs in my garage..750.00 call me if interested.dan 330-524-6983.ill try to get some numbars off it for you.engine block/trans
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what you dont want to hear from jbear and bill.you cant get in the boat till you get your minute,and they throw you back in water!
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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GottaSki
Grand Poobah Joined: April-21-2005 Location: NE CT Status: Offline Points: 3357 |
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pardon, don't yet understand the scenario...
If your replacement trans will likely not have the short input shaft, Why the bother to retain a deep hub dampner til you are certain it it needed with the longer iinput shaft of the new trans? |
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
River Rat to Mole |
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RainDog
Platinum Member Joined: February-21-2007 Location: Mke/Grn Lake WI Status: Offline Points: 1387 |
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Tom, I understand your confusion as I had the same question. The distance from the tip of the splined input shaft to the face of the transmission mounting surface is the same. The input shaft mounting plate is different and consumes the additional input shaft length.
The net net is the length of the exposed shaft is the same. Also, this is why a new velvet drive is a direct replacement for a very old one. |
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