04 SANte no-start! 5.7 pcm |
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emjayem
Newbie Joined: July-09-2011 Location: Lk Mtka, MN Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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Posted: August-02-2016 at 10:10pm |
I have an 04 SANTE with the 5.7 mpfi and about 550 hours, owned it for 3 years, new plugs then, all other maint up to date, never had any drive-ability, rough running, hesitation, etc before now.
On the lake sunday going through a slow zone, had been out for maybe an hour, engine stalled with no hiccup or any warning. Tried restarting, cranks fine, still no start. Checked the obvious, fuel level per gauge, just filled up 2 days prior, should be plenty, lanyard, loose connections, breakers, fuses, all ok. Went as far as pulling out safety switch and jumped it together. Could clearly smell fuel, both pumps turning on. Pulled plug wires for visual, pulled out one plug, looked fine, some fuel soak tho. cranked at WOT to clear flood, cranked and checked for spark, all ok. No fuel psi gauge at the moment, but some sprayed up when pushing the test port valve, will check actual psi tomorrow. Pulled off dizzy cap and it was very fuzzy and rotor end was pretty black so I used a wire brush to clean them up while stranded, still nothing. Replaced cap and rotor today, no change.... was really hoping that was it. Dinked around with checking voltages at pumps, tried checking injector pulse, with test light and it stayed on solid on both pins... so no pulse. Cranking voltage ok. Unplugged pretty much every connector to check for the green, all look ok. Now when i crank it I get a MAP sensor fault message in the dash display. Removed that for visual, looks fine i guess. What am I missing???!! UPDATE: Fuel psi is good, 55psi @rail and more than 15psi at FCC, both hold steady while cranking. Used a spark tester at plug end and it will not jump the gap. Wont jump it at the coil wire either but if i hold the wire close to ground it does spark. Fuel smell is there but pretty minimal, sure seems like I have no injector pulse, I have available voltage on both terrminals all the time, wish i had a noid light, not sure if test light can check that accurately. Swapped relays around and double checked voltages while cranking and lanyard switch operation. Still have the dash beeping at me and saying MAP sensor, I cant imagine that causing a no start tho. I suppose ill go check compression to rule that out (hopefully) Really hoping someone can help me out!! |
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emjayem
Newbie Joined: July-09-2011 Location: Lk Mtka, MN Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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Well now I'm even more stumped than before... I removed all plugs to check compression and decided to rig it up so i could physically watch plugs spark and fuel vapor coming out of plug hole.
Could see that the plugs would fire at the exact time the cylinder would be on compression stroke., so timing appears correct, rotor not on backwards or something, had fuel and spark, compression good at 190 on all, fuel psi good during cranking, engine rpm per tach tool connected to coil wire was about 170 rpm manually actuated injectors to make sure they opened tried cranking with starting fluid, and gas down throttle body lots of vacuum while cranking at throttle body pulled a sample of fuel out while monitoring volume per 10 seconds, about 16oz came out fuel has no separation, no water, didnt check for E85 gaps on iridium tipped plugs were a bit large, maybe .060" re-gapped (big no-no) to .045" grounds good, B+good, On paper, this engine should run.... still getting a MAP sensor message on dash, happened after unplugging it the other day. I have unplugged many other connectors and not gotten any other messages tho..... Supposedly if pumps run for 2 seconds after cranking , you are to assume the CKP sensor is good. I guess ill throw a MAP at it unless someone has a better idea..... just have a hard time believing a MAP would cause a no start. HELP!!!!!! |
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quinner
Grand Poobah Joined: October-12-2005 Location: Unknown Status: Offline Points: 5828 |
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Wow, I certainly cannot think of anything else other then maybe new plugs. Seem to recall the MAP sensor has a screen, filter or something you can clean?? I would also be calling Ski-Dim and maybe even PCM at this point.
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3734 |
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Did it fire at all when you blew starting fluid in? You have to be careful with that stuff or you can explode a piston. Does the O4 5.7L use a crankshaft sensor or camshaft sensor?
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quinner
Grand Poobah Joined: October-12-2005 Location: Unknown Status: Offline Points: 5828 |
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From the diagnostic manual, am I reading this correctly, is this how to clear that code w/o the scan tool?:
Clearing Diagnostic Trouble Codes (NonScan) 1. Install Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) tool. 2. Ignition “ON,” engine “OFF.” 3. Switch DTC tool to “service mode” or “ON.” 4. Move the throttle from 0% (idle) to 100% (WOT) and back to 0%. 5. Switch DTC tool to “normal mode” or “OFF.” (If this step is not performed, the engine may not start and run). 6. Turn ignition “OFF” for at least 20 seconds. 7. Ignition “ON,” engine “OFF.” 8. Switch DTC tool to “service mode” or “ON” and verify DTC 12 only. Remove DTC tool. 9. If original DTC(s) are still present, check “Notice” below and repeat the DTC clearing procedure. 10. If new DTC(s) are displayed, perform the OBD system check. NOTICE: When clearing DTC’s with or without the use of a scan tool, the ignition must be cycled to the “OFF” position or the DTC’s will not clear. |
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emjayem
Newbie Joined: July-09-2011 Location: Lk Mtka, MN Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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Not even a puff, no signs of it wanting to start at all. It has a CKP and a CMP on the distributor According to information that I have found, if the pumps run for 2-4 seconds after cranking, you are to assume the CKP is good. I don't like assuming, but I'm going with it for now. Sure seems like it could be that tho, I've seen many autos with no start due to failed CMP or CKP. The thing that gets me is the fact that plugs are firing and injectors seem to be fueling, which are all reliant on those signals. |
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emjayem
Newbie Joined: July-09-2011 Location: Lk Mtka, MN Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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1. where can I find said diagnostic manual? 2. where can I find said DTC tool? |
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quinner
Grand Poobah Joined: October-12-2005 Location: Unknown Status: Offline Points: 5828 |
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Send me an email and I will reply with a copy
C Quinn at GFGR dot com, |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3734 |
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If the motor did not make noise with Ether, starting fluid you have zero spark when needed.
Starting fluid will ignite in environments that gasoline will not even try to ignite in. IF you have spark it is so far out of time that even Starting fluid will not ignite. Something is far out of whack. Warning once more, starting fluid has blown up more engines than you can count. Please be careful. Some even blow the entire intake manifold off the engine with that stuff. It can be very violent. |
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bkhallpass
Grand Poobah Joined: March-29-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4723 |
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I'm the world's worst mechanic, but it still sounds like a lanyard/cutoff switch to me. Did you check that again? Did you check it all the way back? I don't know. Sometimes we just overlook the obvious.
BKH |
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Livin' the Dream
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emjayem
Newbie Joined: July-09-2011 Location: Lk Mtka, MN Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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You're kinda freaking me out with the starting fluid thing! I mean maybe I did put the rotor on 180* off, I don't think I did but I won't put it past me.... Is there any way to verify the location of it? I didn't see any marks or alignment marks. I just compared it to the old ones location when I put it back on, and it ran great before. Also my little rigged up setup sure seemed to show it spark at the exact time of compression. It's just weird that the boat just died, dead in the water. The only thing I changed is the disi cap and rotor after that because it had obvious corrosion on it..
I am going to put new plugs in tonight because I messed with them, and swap in a new crank sensor from napa and see what happens, maybe ill swap the rotor around to for fun |
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emjayem
Newbie Joined: July-09-2011 Location: Lk Mtka, MN Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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I have the switch removed and jumped and confirmed that when it is open, the pump doesnt run, plug it back in and pumps turn on. |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3734 |
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Do one thing at a time to make sure you are not creating a new problem as you work through this.. Crank sensor failure could certainly kill the engine.
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emjayem
Newbie Joined: July-09-2011 Location: Lk Mtka, MN Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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So the rotor only fits one way, so that is ok
Napa crank sensor was not the same, thats out for now. Found this in service manual; • A defective MAP sensor may cause a no start or a start and stall condition. Have not had time to rnr plugs yet, doubtful it will change anything anyways. |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3734 |
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I agree, plugs may help it run smoother but if it ran good with the old ones plugs are not your issue.
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quinner
Grand Poobah Joined: October-12-2005 Location: Unknown Status: Offline Points: 5828 |
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Based on a few posts I have read plugs have fixed a no start/run issue for a few guys Excal's, Worth a try IMO, Not suggesting just throwing parts at it however have also read plug wires as a fix. My Excal still has the original wires 11 seasons and 600 hrs later fwiw.
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emjayem
Newbie Joined: July-09-2011 Location: Lk Mtka, MN Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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new plugs are in and no change as expected.
Ohmed out plug wires, manual says 10k ohms per foot, mine were at about 1k ohms and coil wire was at about 8k ohms. All wires are basically equal from side to side. I pulled out my MAP sensor and started checking on the table, I made a 5v reference and checked out put of sensor, it definitely was changing output voltage when I sucked or blew it but i could not get voltage to change when checking the air temp side when I ohm out the temp circuit it is right on spec with manual, about 2k ohms at ambient temp, 75*f or so and resistace changed accordingly if it was heated or cooled. So here is the big favor asking question.... can someone with this engine/MAP sensor check resistances from the sensor pin to pin? I would like to compare my readings with someone elses that is known to be good. I would really appreciate it if someone could help out with that!! Also one other thing, I put a fuel psi gauge back on the FCC and it read about 50psi, Isn't that supposed to be low side psi, @ 4-7 psi? or does that FCC port not measure the low side? |
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emjayem
Newbie Joined: July-09-2011 Location: Lk Mtka, MN Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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Fixed! That whole fuel pump relay issue was so weird, have not had a problem with it since. Rechecked spark and confirmed it jumping plug gap, noticed that it was not real bright tho, looked brighter the other day when checking, but it was starting to get dark out.... Then rechecked with a spark tester and it did not jump the gap there, which I noted the first time i checked it, but for some dumb reason i didnt think anything of it, though it was an old broken one. So just for fun i checked the spark tester on my truck, low and behold it jumped the gap no problem. Started rechecking plug wires again and kept coming back to the coil wire measuring about 9000 ohms, spec in manual says 10,000 ohms max. Other wires were from 800 to 1500 ohms varying with length. Tried checking spark at the coil wire and it still seemed weak. Checked primary coil resistance of coil, 0.5 ohms, which is about right, checked secondary coil and found 5600 ohms, which actually is a bit low according to general specs. Went to Oreilly auto parts with multi meter in hand and started looking for a coil that would "work". first got a set of plug wires for an old 350 and checked resistance of coil wire, 1400 ohms. Way less than the 8000 on mine let alone the 10k the manual says is good... Then ended up finding the exact coil as the one in the boat, checked it and found secondary coil resistance at 7500ohms which is more in line with general specs. Put the wire only in and tried starting, no change, put coil in and it fired right up.
So my conclusion is that with the way the cap and rotor looked with all of the corrosion, it created extra work for the coil wire and coil itself, caused wire to have excessive resistance which in turn ended up killing the coil. BWD coil E208 at oreillys is an exact fit to replace the coil separately from the ignition module and a lot cheaper. I checked the wiring diagram on the vehicle it was for and it was the exact drawing as in the PCM man. I was also able to make my own code flasher and clearing tool using a few wires, a dash bulb, and switch. MEFI 4 Thanks for all the help and suggestions! |
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quinner
Grand Poobah Joined: October-12-2005 Location: Unknown Status: Offline Points: 5828 |
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That is great news Matt and thank's for all the info and feedback.
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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Definitely an interesting read. Glad you got it figured out
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quinner
Grand Poobah Joined: October-12-2005 Location: Unknown Status: Offline Points: 5828 |
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Yeah Brian, maybe you need to Start a "Poor Man's Excalibur Diagnosis" thread for the rest of us hacks with Excal's :).
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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I was thinking that actually. It's probably only a matter of time before the Excal issue posts start adding up.
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quinner
Grand Poobah Joined: October-12-2005 Location: Unknown Status: Offline Points: 5828 |
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Get on it, this thread is a good one to link for sure. Was going to start one however did not want to violate your copyright :)
I have a couple PDF files of the diagnosis manual and a parts catalog that would be nice to include, sent them to Matt via this thread. No idea how to upload a PDF to include though?? |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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Google Drive will let you upload, and I believe will also let you share, a PDF.
Let me just post this random one as a test: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzRJOCEx-NOidGZZZ2lqWElKTk0/view?usp=sharing |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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Yup, that worked.
If you want to get a thread started, that's ok with me. I'll have some time this weekend, if you haven't started it by then. I'm a little slammed at work right now... which I should probably get back to. I can get the spreadsheet part started afterwards, once we have a few datapoints to work with. |
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gun-driver
Grand Poobah Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4127 |
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The vehicle that the coil was for would help the next guy looking for one at the auto parts store.
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emjayem
Newbie Joined: July-09-2011 Location: Lk Mtka, MN Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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I posted that up pretty quick last night and kind of blasted through it. I can definitely offer some more specifics and behaviors that I noted along the way. I'd love to contribute my $0.02 because after going through this, I learned what a pain in the ass it was to find a lot of good info or similar situations with others. Honestly, the best info I found as what quinner sent me, that manual is loaded with great info, but there was definitely some I could add and change!
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