Where to start with this engine rebuild? |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21168 |
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More than you might think! Anyone doing a flat tappet or tie bar lifter rebuild could use a good 351 core.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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$4.50 per 100 for clean cast iron (no turnings). |
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gun-driver
Grand Poobah Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4127 |
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If scraps that high in Connecticut I have a truck load to unload then we can do some skiing |
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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Here is maybe the best of both worlds, I like a sure bet, and the gamble of a used motor is a bit daunting to me, so, with that narrowing my options, and knowing that machine work on my existing block is $1500+ parts, This block at summit looks like a good option. I would still run the Gt-40 heads, just exchange the bottom end for a roller block.
Roller short block- Hypereutectic pistons - Would lifters already be in the assembled block? - Looks like a cam is excluded, What lift/duration roller cam would I be looking for? - Do I need to be concerned that this doesn't say Marine on it? assuming that an automotive build is a little tighter, is that going to be a problem? - any opinions on Hypereutectic pistons? Sorry for the 20 questions, but I really value the expertise you guys bring to the table |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Keep looking in just a page or two I saw they had a marine 351 listed not a roller but it had a cam and heads. Maybe a call would confirm they could provide a marine short block with roller cam ?
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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OK.... so more research yesterday, I feel like I am swimming in details and options, but after a frank conversation with my wife regarding our time priorities, I will be ordering a long block. Summit has this one with the GT-40 heads already set up gt40 Long block
The one thing I noticed with this engine choice is the high volume oil pump... since I just did the DUI swap, I know they had specific instructions that you were to run a standard Oil pump, not a high volume one, or if you chose to do this outside of their recommendation, drill an additional oil passage in the block and run a brass distributor gear. I guess I'll be asking summit if they can give me a standard Oil pump in this build. |
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oldcuda
Senior Member Joined: June-22-2010 Status: Offline Points: 474 |
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Marine engines require a different ring gap very important !! Since they are under heavy load most of the time make sure whoever you get shortblock from understands marine specs
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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Thanks Cuda, this is a specifically a marine motor, so they advertise special "marine parts". hopefully I'll have some real spec's once I get a response from Summit
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oldcuda
Senior Member Joined: June-22-2010 Status: Offline Points: 474 |
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Somehow missed link on marine longblock DUH. Yep that would be right direction.
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3734 |
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Dreaming, Check with Motorworks in Spokane or with S and J in Spokane. Both deliver to Seattle a couple times a week. These are major rebuilders.
Both rebuild a few hundred engines per month and have good reputations. Both will allow you to upgrade if that is your choice. Motorworks can run the engine in for you on their dyno and make sure your fuel system is working well if you wish. Costs more but not a bad option. |
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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MrMcD, thanks for the tip, I emailed summit last week and got no response.... seems like an easy question, so maybe they are just busy. I will check with Motorworks and S&J, I like local companies and will compare prices. Reliability is paramount at this point, otherwise I would embark on the rebuild myself path.... its kinda killing me to buy an engine already rebuilt, but other things are more important to do myself. I did a Honda engine 4 years ago, and a couple of other engines before that. I enjoy the process, but don't have any experience with SBF's.
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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Still no answer from Summit, but both of the shops that MrMcD recommended called me back. I compared prices and services on both and made the choice to go with S&J, as they were able to provide a roller cam engine with GT40P heads. They were cheaper on the roller motor than Motorworks, although Steve at Motorworks was very knowledgeable and fun to talk to he obviously loves what he does. All said, I will be receiving my new motor next Wednesday. I'll update more as I get it in the boat.
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rrman01
Newbie Joined: April-15-2009 Location: houston tx Status: Offline Points: 26 |
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Will the dipstick be in the block or the pan?
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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I think it's in the pan, its to the right of the alternator in the first picture. I'll have to confirm when I get home though.
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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So here's the latest update: the engine is out and stripped. I found a couple of things in the process that I'd love to have some feedback on...
1. my intake is cracked, from the t-stat housing all the way into the lifter valley. Yuck.... what do I gain by upgrading verses finding a stock replacement? 2. when I took off the front pulley, these two "weights" fell out of the front of it. are they for balancing? If they are for balance, should I get a new pulley, or try and repair somehow? Is there anything special about this pulley that I should know if I need to order one "weights" Rim of the pulley where I suspect they are from: 3. Should I replace the engine water pump now? Mine seemed to be working fine when removed... Interesting side notes: -94 PCM engines are roller blocks, they have the boss in the lifter valley, . - my dipstick is in the side of the oil pan. - My engine saw a LOT of water for a sustained period of time Note the water mark on the flywheel, and the back of the transmission. and the crust on the timing gears. there is a bunch of crust in the lifter valley as well... when I pulled the left head, I found a bunch of "Grit" in cylinder #4, but no signs of bad rust pitting... I did do a leak down test and the cylinder was at the low end of marginal and leaking through the rings, so I feel like purchasing a motor was still the right decision for me... I could have maybe gotten by with a hone and a re-ring, but that would have been the same amount of tear down work. |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3734 |
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It looks like you had water sitting in that engine rusting the timing set? Have not seen that before. Good thing you are fixing this one.
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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Engine has arrived!
While I was waiting for the truck to show up yesterday, I got some of the old parts cleaned, and started to paint manifolds etc. I also did a little site research and found several intake threads. In my reading, it looks like the Edelbrock Performer RPM intake and the square bore adapter plate were best choice shortest engine height/best performance, so that is what I ordered to replace my cracked stock manifold. Square bore Adapter Edelbrock Manifold looks like more paint work and some bottom end assembly this week while I wait for the intake to arrive. Sure hope it gets here quickly, vacation is scheduled for the week of the 6th, nothing like trying to button it up last minute |
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lewy2001
Grand Poobah Joined: March-19-2008 Location: NSW Australia Status: Offline Points: 2234 |
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How about a Weiand Stealth
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If you're going through hell, keep going
89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
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Jonny Quest
Grand Poobah Joined: August-20-2013 Location: Utah--via Texas Status: Offline Points: 2943 |
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I believe that the Weiand Stealth is a bit lower than the Edelbrock Performer. Height may be an issue, so an inch may be significant.
JQ |
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Current
2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21168 |
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Incorrect. Stealth is comparable in performance and height to a Performer RPM. Taller than the Performer by about 1".
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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Ok, well, I may have just created more work for myself. I was thinking that the performer RPM and the Performer were the same height. Several threads recommended the RPM vs the straight performer, so that is what I have on the way. Here is the thread I found during my research Intake Thread I may end up having to cut down the flame arrestor a bit if all doesn't go as planned.
Tim - can you explain the purpose of the carb spacer with the PCV port? it appears that there is a vacuum port on the manifold that could be used for the PCV if I wanted to eliminate the spacer. Eliminating the spacer could get the carb lower and limit the need for arrestor Mods and throttle cable adjustments too. |
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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Progress update
So Summit didn't have the intake in stock, but I found that JEG's did, so after canceling and re-ordering the intake, I received it last night, The night's beginning canvas: Here is where I finished up: More progress for tonight I hope, as I'd like to get this thing installed on Saturday so I can do my initial run and testing Sunday or Monday. anyone that understands carb spacers, I am still confused about why they are needed. even after reading several internet articles, I think that the 4 hole spacer I have is supposed to give the engine more low end torque, correct? Other articles say not to run them, but that's where some of the site expertise would be helpful. What has your experience been? |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3734 |
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I have seen dyno operators test an engine, then add a spacer and see the same exact engine pick up 10 or more horsepower. The whys of this I can't explain but many times the spacer will add horsepower. When do you put a fire in the hole? (start it up)
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oldcuda
Senior Member Joined: June-22-2010 Status: Offline Points: 474 |
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I believe most of the time that improvement happens at higher rims than these engines will ever see. There might be a little better torque in the midrange.
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21168 |
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4 hole spacers add low-mid torque, open spacers help mid upper hp. That's the conventional line of thinking anyways.
Depending on the intake and arrestor you're running, it may be a moot point. Motor box clearance may make your decision easier. PCV plumbing is a consideration if you decide to ditch the spacer. |
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Jonny Quest
Grand Poobah Joined: August-20-2013 Location: Utah--via Texas Status: Offline Points: 2943 |
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Weiand Stealth: Height: Front 4.37", Rear 5.06". Carb pad height 4.72" Performer: Height: Front 4.30", Rear 5.30"; Carb pad height: 4.80" Very close, but, per the specs, the Weiand Stealth is a smidge lower. JQ |
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Current
2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21168 |
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Specs are wrong or are using different reference points.
Stock-stealth-performer Performer-stealth-stock |
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Jonny Quest
Grand Poobah Joined: August-20-2013 Location: Utah--via Texas Status: Offline Points: 2943 |
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Tim:
Good to see the side-by-side. I almost bought the Weiand Stealth as the specifications showed it lower than the Edelbrock Performer. I even called both manufacturers to verify numbers. Both verified the printed specifications. Looks like somebody at Holley/Weiand has their numbers wrong. Based on your picture, it appears that the Edelbrock is a little higher than the stock manifold (assuming that is a stock manifold). What is the height difference from stock to the Edelbrock? JQ |
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Current
2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3734 |
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Great answer for him Tim, your spare parts list is amazing. You must be experimenting a lot.
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21168 |
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That pic is 10yrs old, back from when I upgraded my '90. Those pics have been posted a few times on here. Haven't built a warm sbf since then... The stealth is what got installed.
Performer is 1.5" taller than stock. Stealth is another 1" taller yet. |
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