PROPS

8122pbrainard wrote: Why would I put anything but a bronze prop on a 1915 boat with a 1927 engine?

You should go with stainless, the flexing of the bronze prop when you channel those 15 HP through it will kill performance.

Pete have you actually been working on the launch or are you thinking ahead on the prop? Start a thread on it if you have some wood working done please. I'd like to see what you're up to.   In the "off Topic" section of course.

GlassSeeker wrote: Sure he came to sell props but we are going to fix his Sanger. What Sanger does he have? What's wrong with it?

??? Did I miss something?

GlassSeeker wrote: Yeah I guess...see page 1...propguy has a specialty in barefooting and a Sanger with something wrong with it...maybe backfoot fixed it

Hey Andy,
His Sanger is an '88 DX with a 260 Mercruiser. Nice boat but it definitely could use some more ponies. It's either WFO or nothing for footing. Even then it only tops out about 40-41 with a footer in tow. A couple more MPH would be really nice. Gorgeous boat though.

It had sat for some time because he gets pretty much all the skiing time he wants as part of the Gardens ski team. It just needed a good tune up which I did. Wires, points, plugs, cap, rotor, condenser.
It would start and idle perfectly and we ran it around the lake for 15-20 minutes. It ran great.
A week later he called me and said he was out driving a competitive trick skier. The boat ran great for about 30-45 minutes and then started missing really bad. It had rough idle, stumbling and finally die. He managed to get it back to the dock and let it sit overnight before he would look at it again. The next day he was amazed when it fired right up and it ran perfectly again for 30-45 minutes and the whole thing started all over again.

In trying to get the boat back to the dock after one of these outings, he left the key on overnight which burned out the points and messed up the starter solenoid so I replaced the points again and replaced the starter solenoid.. I also removed, tested, cleaned and coated with NO-OX all the ignition wires from the starter switch, solenoid, starter, battery and wiring harness. I wanted to make sure that there were no wiring issues causing this problem.
He had also loosened up the gas cap when this happened to make sure that the vent hose wasn't plugged. He removed and cleaned out the anti-siphon valve which was perfectly clean also eliminating fuel delivery issues.

We were kinda baffled and I found a tech note online from Mercruiser about vapor lock issues on these engines. Mind you, I've never been a big believer in vapor lock as I've personally never experienced it so I was skeptical.

We arranged to meet after work one day and see if we could get it to happen while I was with him. Remember, at this point I had not experienced any issues at all. I had tuned it and run it for 15 minutes and it had run beautifully. When I got there, he had everything cleaned out of the boat and the engine cover removed so we had no obstacles working on it.
We beat the snot out of that thing for an hour and 20 minutes and didn't get so much as a hiccup out of it. It ran perfect with my only objection being it needs more ponies. The only thing I could possibly come up with was the vapor lock theory when the engine was installed.

We found the air hoses from the deck air scoop to the bilge were rotted away and not allowing proper air flow through the bilge. I still contend that this single thing shouldn't cause vapor lock but what do I know. Then the next question is why would it now suddenly start to vapor lock when it has never done it before?

To date, I haven't heard if he has had any issues since ordering new vent hoses but I don't know how much he's used it either. So that's the long winded version of what's wrong or what was wrong with his Sanger.

WHEW!!!!

I had a car that was pron to vapor lock and the symptoms sound similar to what has been described. With the exception of the car would vapor lock while stopped in traffic (no air flow blowing through the motor compartment) heat would rise reaching the fuel lines and stall the motor. After it sat long enough it would start right up. Wrapping the fuel lines in tin foil and adding wooden close pins actually helped a little (looked horrible).

If the motor temperature is still normal vapor lock may not be the issue. Although as this boat has some years on it another issue could arise. I have seen water jackets in the heads rusted closed and the temp gauge remained normal. But probably not.

However, the boat issue sounds like it happens under load. You have checked all the normal issues with proper reasoning. The one thing I have not heard mentioned is moisture in the fuel. The boat is older and moisture can build up over time in a tank with condensation. I know you guys are aware of this but it has not been mentioned and this would happen under load. Something to look at.

At my location we see temperatures as high as 115 and as low as -20. Condensation problems are not uncommon. I do not know if this would be a problem in Florida. I store my cars and boats with a full tank of gas (less room for condensation) and Sta-Bil in the tanks. I also frequently add Chevron Techroline fuel injector cleaner to all my vehicles carbed or injected In some cases you may need to purchase specific fuel/water treatments found in cold climates.

Eddie is that no-ox marine approved or telco approved

8122pbrainard wrote: Ken, Deep Blue has the DJ355 bronze 12" for $364.00 The list is $473.00.

Rob,
Can you do better than Deep Blue?

Hollywood wrote: 88 Sanger not 98. Should be carbed but I didn't get a look under the motorbox when he had it over. Coil could be breaking down but you should have been able to repeat the symptoms. Eddie is no hack he would have been able to diagnose the problem had it reoccurred. All is well that ends well. Hi Rob.

I said was an '88 and yes, definitely carbed with a Rochester which I know nothing about.
Forgot to mention that the coil is also new. From SkiDim specifically for Mercruisers. The old one was so corroded that terminals were almost unrecognizable. In answer to your next question, it measures 1.5 ohms as the original did and Mercruisers use a resistance wire instead of a ballast resistor. The coil gets warm but not hot by any means.

The fuel has also been replaced with new and new filter/water separator so we know that water in the fuel isn't an issue.. I had a two gallon gas can at the ready to swap in place of the fuel tank when we went for our test run but didn't have to use it so that aspect has not been verified.
All the evidence thus far does point to vapor lock but again, I'm still skeptical.

We've run the old carbed boats in over 100 degree weather without issues. We've seen them "load up" upon stop and shut down and becomes necessary to open throttle wide open to start.

What prop does he have? My 260 would get 42 with a footer so it's really not too far off. But the rough running is strange given all that's been checked...maybe give the Rochester a kit.

Eddie I know you know it's an 88. Someone started down the fuel injected road.

Crummy fuel tank? Does he normally run low fuel?

I guess I am Rob's first CCF customer. Here is the 542 he finished:




It turned out great. Thanks Rob.

Seacamper (Tom) I wish we had a before pic, that one was a little rough, I guess all that time sitting on the bottom of the lake. Thanks so much for the business!!
      Rob

GlassSeeker wrote: We've run the old carbed boats in over 100 degree weather without issues. We've seen them "load up" upon stop and shut down and becomes necessary to open throttle wide open to start. What prop does he have? My 260 would get 42 with a footer so it's really not too far off. But the rough running is strange given all that's been checked...maybe give the Rochester a kit.

Not sure what prop is on it Andy. As far as I know it's the factory one. My next thought would be a rebuild but again, I've never touched a Rochester.

GlassSeeker wrote: Of course there is the $9000 solution...a complete fi 383 Merc stroker 350hp....they plug right in.

Agreed on the 383 upgrade...LOL. I'm sure Rob would too.

Hi guys sorry for the absenteeism but I am busy running my business and don't spend a lot of time online. I'm surprised how this thread went from me "spaming" to you guys helping diagnose my boat. I appreciate all the input and theories, I haven't had it out since Eddie and I ran it without a issue I believe that the issue was/is the lack of fresh air into the engine box due to the fresh air hoses not working and getting good airflow into the box, causing vapor lock. Andy the prop I have on it is a OJ 13x13, it used to get 42 mph now its only 40 on GPS, I think I lost about 200 RPM (timing?) Yes the 383 would be an awesome upgrade but I don't have a spare 9k laying around. I will build a 383 at some point, probably a 400HP one. Thanks seacamper for the prop repair. Have a great weekend guys and thanks for the help with my boat.
    Rob (PROPGUY)

Rob I can help with a lot of info on that 88 DX...mine is a 90. One of the best things you can do is add the factory cavitation plate aka barefoot plate. It is the same one used on the DXII. Now here we get into some hull differences. An 88 should have an "original" DX hull ...the DXII hull has shortened lifting strakes see pitot mounting spot...the 88 hull should be like my 90 having full length strakes which has more similarity to the Sanger Outboard hull in design. Many DX's sit on DXII hulls...ive not seen a DXII on a DX deck though...the early 90's Sanger mixed and matched those lower hulls. So what does this all mean? It means your 88 with a plate and 400hp will have a wake as good or better than (in regard to barefoot wake slalom) a brand new 55,000 DXII. My 90 has a wake that hall of fame barefooter Willie Farrell calls it "too easy".